Voluntary Termination of Vehicle with fitted camera

[Guest]

Hi

I m in the process of VT of my BMW to Black Horse Finance. The vehicle has the BMW Eye 2.0 camera installed, front and rear, which is impossible to remove without damaging the interior. It cost me £550 to have fitted by my local BMW dealership.

I am happy to return the vehicle with the camera fitted, but am certain Black Horse will come after me for arrears on the finance even though I have paid half and almost certain they will come after me for excess mileage.

Can I offset the cost of the camera against anything they come after me for?

Thanks you
CDA

[R0b]

Can I offset the cot of the camera against anything they come after me for?

Nope, well you can try but you have zero legal grounds to enforce it

[atticus]

you might try arguing that this kit has enhanced the vehicle's value.

[Guest]

Hello again

I am still fighting with Black Horse Finance regarding VT of my vehicle. We are now almost a year down the line and they have still refused to collect the vehicle and have used all of the excuses/ reasons why they will not collect mentioned in your posts.

I haven't been able to afford to pay for the vehicle since all of the IR35 regulations came into place and then lockdown hit and I was out of work. Then shortly after returning to work, my brother was diagnosed with stage 4 liver cancer. I was his carer, while I was caring for him my contract was terminated when I took time off after he passed away, which also fell during the Christmas break 2021.

Black Horse have never offered me financial assistance, never given me the option to VT or reduce payments or refinance to allow me to keep the vehicle. They write to me every month to inform me the arrears have gone up. Arrears now they claim are at £9,566.06.

My recent conversation with their customer service team resulted in them telling me 'if I know so much about law I should get my solicitor to write them a letter confirming what you have set out in your VT guide.

I have a buyer for the car who is offering to pay over the book price, but under the settlement figure. Black Horse are refusing to accept the offer, claiming that the full settlement figure must be paid, even though that settlement figure includes arrears and fees.

My credit score is being totally battered while all of this is going on, I can not get finance anywhere now.

The finance agreement is due to end in December 2022, Black Horse would quite happily allow this to drag on that long.

What are my next options? I have sent them the letter stating 'repudiatory breach of contract' and also advised them if they did not respond by 8th August I would sell the car on, but the dealership who want to buy the car can't/ wont purchase until the settlement figure is amended to the £20,100 they have agreed to pay.

What can I do now?

[R0b]

Sounds like you have got yourself in a right mess, why have you let it rumble on for so long?

It's not clear in your latest post whether you have actually exercised your VT right or if you have merely made an enquiry about so clarification would be useful. If you have given notice to VT, why did you send a repudiatory breach letter?

By doing that you may have inadvertently accepted that your VT notice was not valid and therefore you are still liable for the remaining instalments as of today, and that's assuming BH haven't sent you default notices and terminated the agreement, in which case you may have scuppered yourself altogether.

The reality is that if you want any chance of saving all of this and your credit file, you are probably going to need to take it to court, which you probably should have done a long time ago. I have a dispute ongoing at the moment for exactly the same thing... I VT'd but the lender hit my credit file, I issued a claim and low and behold within a matter of weeks of them instructing a law firm, they suddenly removed those negative entries. That's not to say yours will pan out the same as mine if you did go to court and it may be that BH defends the claim for whatever reasons but if you can validly claim you exercised your VT right and the court agrees, then I can't see how BH can come out on top for messing with your credit file.

You may want to put a pause on making attempts to sell the car. Based on what you've posted I can't see any legal right for you to dispose of the car as if it was your own. If that car is sold in any way without permission, BH could claim the car as stolen which inevitably means it is seized by police and returned to them, you are then on the hook for the £20k that the buyer gave you for the sale. Alternatively, BH might get a recovery company to seize it directly which they have a right to because you the buyer is not protected if they are aware the car has finance on it. Otherwise if you are happy to take the risk then go for it.

If you want to take this further and as far as court, then you need to take a step back and help us understand what has happened in the last 12 months so we can work out what options you have (if any).

[Guest]

Oh wow!

ok, so I have received so much confusing advice I didn't now what to do.

Clearly I have mis-read the advice on this forum as I assumed the letters were staged in a way that I should send each one in succession.

I first notified BH that I wanted to VT the vehicle back in 2021. They allowed me to take a payment holiday for 3 months and charged me £100 per month for the privilege. It was only recently, after I complained about them not allowing me to VT, that they removed those charges.

I have given verbal notice on several occasions, but it was only upon coming across our VT process that I picked up the letter and sent the written instruction in June 2022. I printed, but I didn't sign it, not because your instructions said it didn't have to be, but because I asked my daughter to print it and send as I don't have a printer.

BH called me after receiving the first letter advising they could not accept the letter as it was not signed, and also that as I did not sign their paperwork they would not be able to collect the car, I disputed that fact.

They have also previously advised me that I could sell the vehicle if I secured a price close to the settlement figure which was nowhere near where it is now as it now includes arrears and fees.

After my last conversation with them about 3 weeks ago I sent the repudiatory breach letter as I have an offer for the car but can't go ahead with it as its below the settlement figure and BH have stated I am liable for the difference.

BH have yet to respond.

People keep telling me I should take the vehicle back to the dealership I purchased from and leave it there, I'm guessing now I should not do that either?

[Guest]

I just want to add 2020/21 were pretty difficult years for me, not only did I have a pretty bad experience with a narcissistic partner, my grandmother, mother and brother were all diagnosed with cancer. Along with the IR35 regulations coming into play, losing my contract and all income, my brother passing away in Dec 2021 and contracting COVID twice it's been difficult to stay on top of all of this.

I had been prescribed anti depressants and referred for counselling and then the menopause started (hot flashes etc.). I just cant catch a break at the moment. I struggle to remember what day it is some days, all of this is just so overwhelming, it makes me feel suicidal. I just want an end to it all.

[R0b]

Thanks for the update, and sorry to hear you are having a rough time.

I will have a proper read through your posts later today and have a think of next steps but in the meantime, can you clarify that when you notified BH of your intention to VT, did you actually send them a letter/email saying that you are terminating or that you are thinking about it? In order for VT to be effective, there needs to be an unequivocal indication that you intended to exercise your right to terminate. If you simply said that you were thinking of terminating, that probably won't cut the mustard.

[R0b]

Thanks for the update, and sorry to hear you are having a rough time.

I will have a proper read through your posts later today and have a think of next steps but in the meantime, can you clarify that when you notified BH of your intention to VT, did you actually send them a letter/email saying that you are terminating or that you are thinking about it? In order for the VT to be effective, there needs to be an unequivocal indication that you intended to exercise your right to terminate. If you simply said that you were thinking of terminating, that won't cut the mustard.

[Guest]

Hi Rob,

Yes, they definitely received a letter stating I was exercising my right to VT I used the template from this forum.
They sent me an 8 page document to sign for me to agree liability for any arrears etc. which I refused to sign. They have had a couple of letters now stating I am VT the car, each time they refuse claiming I need to sign their paperwork first.

[R0b]

Your issues are pretty much a mirror image of my issues I'm having with my lender although it's not BH and insisting I had to sign their paperwork claiming it is their policy (but their policy means jack if it goes against your rights). It sounds like you have VT'd so that should be the basis of any claim you make.

Look, the problem you have is that joe bloggs behind a desk is simply policy orders and I am fairly confident (but I can't guarantee) that if a claim was issued and it was passed to the people that really matter i.e. the lawyers, I think they would take steps to rectify the mistakes being made here. They may argue otherwise but I think it really is the only way you are going to get some kind of closure on this.

I believe you are entitled to seek compensation for breach of data protection for failing to keep their records accurate and the reporting of the negative entries to credit reference agencies further compounded the issue by causing your score to drop dramatically restricting your credit as well as any other losses such as reduced credit due to those entries. It's difficult to put an exact figure on any compensation for breach fo data protection but I think somewhere in the region of £1,000 would be reasonable based on your circumstances.

Of course whatever you are claiming if you wanted to bring legal proceedings there will be a fee, which is tied to the amount being claimed. If your not bothered about the compensation you can reduce the value and thus pay less. The cost of the fees (one for issuing and another fee for proceeding to a hearing) can be found here EX50 - Civil and Family Court Fees (publishing.service.gov.uk) - see page 5 and page 7. If you have no job and no income then you might qualify for a fee remission but you would need to do that yourself by following this link Get help paying court and tribunal fees - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

I would normally advocate alternatives to legal proceedings but I generally find this is the only way to get their attention and make them do their job properly. You can always try the Financial Ombudsman but unfortunately they take forever, months if not years and if you don't get the decision you want then your next step is legal proceedings.

The ball is in your court and I will help where I can but it is your decision to make. If you did want to proceed, the starting point would be to send a letter before action and allow them 14 days to comply with your demands, failing which you will then start legal proceedings. I would caution that once you start proceedings, you work to the court's deadline and missing the deadline causes lots of headaches and problems as well as being stressful so only go down this route if you are certain you can handle it and feel up for it.

I suggest you take the next couple of days or even the weekend to work out what you want to do, happy to answer any questions but I wouldn't recommend hanging around too long as it's likely to get worse.

Out out curiosity, where is the car currently sitting and is it insured and taxed?

[Guest]

Thanks Rob

The car is parked on my drive, it is taxed and insured & MOT'd.

Assuming as well that I can not leave the car at the dealership I purchased from?

[R0b]

The dealership doesn't own the vehicle, they sold it to the finance company who own it and as you have it in your possession, you are responsible to take reasonable care of the vehicle.

The legal term for this is that you are a 'bailee' which is someone who has possession of goods that they don't own but have been given permission to use the goods. However your situation is the case of an involuntary bailee, which is someone who is in possession of goods they don't want to use or have permission to use. In either case, a bailee has a duty to take reasonable care of the goods and if you drop the vehicle off at the dealership and something goes wrong, whether the car is damaged, lost or stolen, you will be liable to the finance company.

The only way is for them to either collect the car or for you to drop it off at an agreed place, or sell it on (but with caveats and at this stage I woudn't consider that just now).

[Guest]

BH have said that they will allow the sale if I agree to pay the outstanding balance from the settlement figure which is still valid until the 28th of this month I believe. They said they would agree a payment plan, but again as I have already paid up to 50% of the finance agreement I am not liable for any arrears am I?

Can I also assume that as I have written the letter to VT, even though BH have not formally agreed to it I should not use the vehicle as it has/ is being used.

[R0b]

You really need to stick to one storyline.

Either you VT'd last year and deem the contract terminated or you accept the VT did not take place last year, you failed to make the instalments as required and all those negative entries on your credit file are true. If you choose to sell the car at the settlement price, you are giving the impression that you are liable for the remaining balance of the contract.

If your position is that you VT'd last year, forget what BH are saying you can or cannot do as it is not your job to do their job. I cannot make it any clearer than what I already have - do not do anything that is inconsistent with your right to VT together with your capped liability as the more you stray away, the more ammunition it gives BH and a court to think you have waived or withdrew your right to terminate and instead chose to carry on with the contract.

If you are arguing the contract is already terminated, you should not be using the car without their permission because it is inconsistent with your VT rights.

If you choose to deviate or cave into pressure, you only have yourself to blame if something goes wrong or not the way you expected.