Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

[blueblueboy]

Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

Could you give us a bit more information about this - which website was it that you used ? ( https://www.continuing-healthcare.co.uk/ ?? ) Was this recently or when you were trying to sort out funding originally ?

Hi Amethyst
It was Free Nursing Care - the old site was closed down [and new admins took over as there was concern about the previous admin offering to act as an advocate and charging people £500 - and then not doing anything to progress the case - so it seems I wasn't the only one! ] and all the users were migrated to a new platform in Feb this year.

I've posted a message but it seems as though no-one is monitoring the site now.

Thanks

[Amethyst]

Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

Hi Amethyst
It was Free Nursing Care - the old site was closed down [and new admins took over as there was concern about the previous admin offering to act as an advocate and charging people £500 - and then not doing anything to progress the case - so it seems I wasn't the only one! ] and all the users were migrated to a new platform in Feb this year.

I've posted a message but it seems as though no-one is monitoring the site now.

Thanks

Blimey. Quick investigate and thats a big can of worms. Can you pm me with some more details, who you paid the £500 to, how, what for, and so on, and we'll keep it separate from this thread about your actual issues, which are of course far more important, but I hate people being ripped off when they are looking for help.

[Amethyst]

this has been going on for 10 years now and I have been renting out the*property [which has cost me a fortune when the tenants have done a bunk leaving damage - happened again in March this year and bill is running into thousands - I don't have the heart to let it out again so thinking of biting the bullet and paying the care home fees as this has been hanging*over my head for 10 years now. *There will be nothing left by*the time I've paid CGT and the care home fees .....never mind - I only bought it in the first place with my parents as they were too old to get a mortgage and had lived there 30 years [council house - up North]*by this time and didn't want to be forced by the council to move to a smaller house or flat.

I think the LA should have disregarded the property as at the time it was just me and my Dad as joint tenants.

The advice I had from the solicitor at the time in 2006 was 'it was unlikely that your share of the property would be considered in relation to assessing your father's assets given that you had bought the property jointly with your parents many years before there was any indication that care home assistance would be required".

Actually bought the property in 1982 and my mother died in 1991 and my father went into a care home in 2006 and died in 2007.

Have you heard anything from the LA at all about the restriction in recent years ?

Do you know how much they want from the property ?

A restriction shouldn't stop you selling, just that written notice needs to be given to the council and there needs to be a certificate provided to the LR to state this has been done. Actually as Peridot stated previously

The charge will remain until it is paid and the LA agree to its removal.
There is nothing preventing the sale. Having the restriction on the title just ensures that if or when the property is sold the LA receive the sum they have calculated due

[blueblueboy]

Have you heard anything from the LA at all about the restriction in recent years ?

Do you know how much they want from the property ?

A restriction shouldn't stop you selling, just that written notice needs to be given to the council and there needs to be a certificate provided to the LR to state this has been done. Actually as Peridot stated previously

Hi thanks for your response.

Question 1

• I have not heard from the LA since 2014 when I submitted an App1b requesting an Independent Review Panel.
• In the form I was asked for proof that I had authority to act on behalf of the patient [my father] and asked to provide a photocopy of a Power of Attorney or Lasting Power of Attorney [ref 1 October 2007] or Enduring Power of Attorney [prior to 1 Oct 2007] must be registered unless a best interest decision or written authorisation has been obtained, or Proof of executor or personal representative of the deceased.
• I didn't have any of the above as Father had vascular dementia and when we tried to get PoA when my father was in the care home the solicitor said he didn't have sufficient mental capacity to sign.
• Despite not having any of the above, the LA deemed me responsible for the care home fees [and not my two siblings] as I had bought my parents' house with them back in 1982 so were all joint tenants; so happy to recognise my capacity to pay the bills but not to fight for NHS Continuing Care???

Question 2

• Not sure of final figure - about £10k but this is without interest charges - last time I had a bill was in 2009 where they decided after my earlier appeal that my Father had been entitled to 30% funding by the NHS and 70% by the council, however they hadn't applied this 'discount' as I hadn't provided them with evidence that I was next of kin, had PoA, was my Father's personal representative or executor of the will [my Father hadn't left a will]. They also asked me for proof of payment for the care home fees [which I didn't/don't have] as all my Father's pension was taken straight from his account towards the care home fees]. I didn't / don't have access to these account as my sister was supposedly looking after my Father [and his accounts] but didn't - that's another story.....!

My concern is that if I sell the house the LA will claim not only the original sum but will not calculate the 30% they earlier reckoned my Father should have been entitled to [as I don't have the documentary evidence they require] and will also slap on interest from the bill from 2007. I never entered into a deferred agreement with them as I was intent on fighting for NHS Continuing Care. They put a charge on the property addressing the notices my late Mother, my Father who was resident in a care home and to myself living 200 miles away and sent the letters to the empty property - resulting in my not being able to challenge.

Many thanks for any assistance.

[blueblueboy]

Hi thanks for your response.

Question 1

• I have not heard from the LA since 2014 when I submitted an App1b requesting an Independent Review Panel.
• In the form I was asked for proof that I had authority to act on behalf of the patient [my father] and asked to provide a photocopy of a Power of Attorney or Lasting Power of Attorney [ref 1 October 2007] or Enduring Power of Attorney [prior to 1 Oct 2007] must be registered unless a best interest decision or written authorisation has been obtained, or Proof of executor or personal representative of the deceased.
• I didn't have any of the above as Father had vascular dementia and when we tried to get PoA when my father was in the care home the solicitor said he didn't have sufficient mental capacity to sign.
• Despite not having any of the above, the LA deemed me responsible for the care home fees [and not my two siblings] as I had bought my parents' house with them back in 1982 so were all joint tenants; so happy to recognise my capacity to pay the bills but not to fight for NHS Continuing Care???

Question 2

• Not sure of final figure - about £10k but this is without interest charges - last time I had a bill was in 2009 where they decided after my earlier appeal that my Father had been entitled to 30% funding by the NHS and 70% by the council, however they hadn't applied this 'discount' as I hadn't provided them with evidence that I was next of kin, had PoA, was my Father's personal representative or executor of the will [my Father hadn't left a will]. They also asked me for proof of payment for the care home fees [which I didn't/don't have] as all my Father's pension was taken straight from his account towards the care home fees]. I didn't / don't have access to these account as my sister was supposedly looking after my Father [and his accounts] but didn't - that's another story.....!

My concern is that if I sell the house the LA will claim not only the original sum but will not calculate the 30% they earlier reckoned my Father should have been entitled to [as I don't have the documentary evidence they require] and will also slap on interest from the bill from 2007. I never entered into a deferred agreement with them as I was intent on fighting for NHS Continuing Care. They put a charge on the property addressing the notices my late Mother, my Father who was resident in a care home and to myself living 200 miles away and sent the letters to the empty property - resulting in my not being able to challenge.

Many thanks for any assistance.

Hi Amethyst thanks for your response in June, I'm just re-posting my response below in case it didn't make it through or got lost in the avalanche of mails / posts you receive.
August 2018: So in summary, the last contact with the council was in 2014 when I returned the App1b to request an IRP - haven't heard anything since. Nor have I been chased by the finance people to pay the bill. The last I heard from the finance people was in 2009. Surely they can't be continuing to add interest. Isn't there an obligation to re-invoice every 12 months? or make contact or is there a chance they've written off the bill? I'm thinking because after my last appeal which was 'partially upheld' ? I told them in the App1b that I didn't have any of the paperwork they wanted in order to reimburse funds already paid - so wonder if my case has been put in the 'too difficult' pile?

Many thanks

[Amethyst]

So the last you heard anything was 2014? and you're not really sure what the current situation is ?

Best bet, without poking the hornets nest, is to send a SAR to the council - you do need to get this sorted out so you are able to sell the property so need to find out the exact position to be able to take steps to sort it out. The house value may have increased sufficiently for ( if absolutely necessary ) you to temporarily release some equity to pay off anything outstanding to have the charge removed prior to selling.

Subject Access Request Letter


Was your contact with the ''Advocate'' guy before or after your last appeal after which you've heard nothing ? ( I think it was before, but just in case he had third party authority and they have been writing to him in error )

Does your sister have PoA for your father ? I'm assuming your relationship with your sister isn't brilliant, thinking you might need a SAR in your fathers name if one in your own name doesn't bring up all the info you need - particularly regarding the fees being paid direct from his pension/accounts.

[blueblueboy]

So the last you heard anything was 2014? and you're not really sure what the current situation is ?

Best bet, without poking the hornets nest, is to send a SAR to the council - you do need to get this sorted out so you are able to sell the property so need to find out the exact position to be able to take steps to sort it out. The house value may have increased sufficiently for ( if absolutely necessary ) you to temporarily release some equity to pay off anything outstanding to have the charge removed prior to selling.

Subject Access Request Letter


Was your contact with the ''Advocate'' guy before or after your last appeal after which you've heard nothing ? ( I think it was before, but just in case he had third party authority and they have been writing to him in error )

Does your sister have PoA for your father ? I'm assuming your relationship with your sister isn't brilliant, thinking you might need a SAR in your fathers name if one in your own name doesn't bring up all the info you need - particularly regarding the fees being paid direct from his pension/accounts.

Hi Amethyst - many thanks for response.

I'll do a SAR as you suggest. Or two - one in my name and one in my Dad's name if that's possible.

We weren't able to get a EPOA or anything in writing as by the time my Dad was moved into the care home the solicitor was sent away by the Sister as Dad was deemed not capable of signing anything - so he died intestate. The council are/were quite happy that I assume responsibility for the care home fees [as I was joint owner of the house] without any paperwork but not for me to receive the 'partial' refund [agreed at the last appeal] without providing a POA/LPOA/EPOA/ or proof that I was the executor [my App1B] in 2014 was predicated on being a 'representative of the deceased' but as I say - not heard anything since. So council happy for me to be responsible for fees etc. but conversely not be eligible to receive a notional refund without the aforementioned paperwork. Relationship with one sister broken down [long story] but good with other sister.

The 'advocate' has done nothing. The advice to the LA / NHS was to write to him, ccd to me. The 'advocate' wrote a very short email to the NHS contact in 2011 but then failed to respond to the subsequent reply.. Since then it's been bluster and email avoidance from him.

It's very disheartening when someone takes advantage of folk when they are at their lowest ebb - as you said in your earlier post - the injustice makes the blood boil. I'm thinking of issuing a claim against him via the small claims track as he hasn't fulfilled his part of the bargain [I signed his agreement/paid my £500/sent a detailed summary of all events] and all it resulted in was a couple of brief emails from him to the authority. Is this something the Small Claims track would deal with? If only to send a warning across his bows about exploiting other vulnerable people?

Thank you.

[blueblueboy]

So the last you heard anything was 2014? and you're not really sure what the current situation is ?

Best bet, without poking the hornets nest, is to send a SAR to the council - you do need to get this sorted out so you are able to sell the property so need to find out the exact position to be able to take steps to sort it out. The house value may have increased sufficiently for ( if absolutely necessary ) you to temporarily release some equity to pay off anything outstanding to have the charge removed prior to selling.

Subject Access Request Letter


Was your contact with the ''Advocate'' guy before or after your last appeal after which you've heard nothing ? ( I think it was before, but just in case he had third party authority and they have been writing to him in error )

Does your sister have PoA for your father ? I'm assuming your relationship with your sister isn't brilliant, thinking you might need a SAR in your fathers name if one in your own name doesn't bring up all the info you need - particularly regarding the fees being paid direct from his pension/accounts.

Hi Amethyst
I've received the results of the SAR from the council - they have said they have no records with my details relating to social care/housing-right to buy/finance.
I've now finally dug out all the paperwork. The council finance dept. last wrote in 2009 with a demand for payment. Heard nothing since.
I sent back request for IRP in 2014. Heard nothing since.
The charging order on the property remains.
Has there been a change in process which has resulted in the finance folk not chasing? Debt dates back to 2007!
Or is council just biding time waiting for house to be sold?
I presume the solicitor handling the sale has to get in touch with the council to let them know the date the property sells. OR does the charge have to be settled and removed BEFORE selling?
Putting it on the market soon - it's just another hassle - renting it out when I live so far away.
Thanks for any advice you can offer.

[Peridot]

Hi Blueblueboy,
The SAR part not really my area but as far as the charge is concerned any monies owing will be deducted from the sale proceeds and paid directly to the Local Authority before you receive any sum from the proceeds (once sale costs, estate agent fees etc are deducted in addition to the charge).
Prior to payment I believe the conveyancer or solicitor should obtain a current figure due, from the LA. Do check with the conveyancer or solicitor that they are doing this.
No you don't need to settle the outstanding sum before you market the property it should happen on completion, the person dealing settling everything. Do request a completion statement so you have a record of the payment.
Hope that answers the latter part of your post.

[blueblueboy]

Hi Blueblueboy,
The SAR part not really my area but as far as the charge is concerned any monies owing will be deducted from the sale proceeds and paid directly to the Local Authority before you receive any sum from the proceeds (once sale costs, estate agent fees etc are deducted in addition to the charge).
Prior to payment I believe the conveyancer or solicitor should obtain a current figure due, from the LA. Do check with the conveyancer or solicitor that they are doing this.
No you don't need to settle the outstanding sum before you market the property it should happen on completion, the person dealing settling everything. Do request a completion statement so you have a record of the payment.
Hope that answers the latter part of your post.

Many thanks Peridot
I will have to let the conveyancer know that there's a charge on the property from the outset. Was kind of hoping if no-one mentioned it - it might go away! It's all a little odd that the results of the Subject Access Request did not reveal any data from the Finance Dept/Social Care/Housing - Right to Buy - I specified these areas too.....all goes back to the fact that I feel my Father should have received NHS Continuing Care and his 50% share of the property [literally just over the £23k limit at the time] should have been disregarded as we owned the property jointly and who would want to buy half a shared property....! Anyway - we'll fight on. Very grateful to your group for advice.