Another bailiff discussion thread.

ST has posted one potentially valid view. The link below gives another equally valid view, and the one to which I concur. In fact, only tonight on another forum, a debtor got their MP involved with this and HMCTS reinforced the view in the link I have posted in their reply to the MP.

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ion-under-TCGR

[Guest]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

Wombats-That is the exact example that I was referring to that was first posted on a private CIVEA notice board. It is CIVEA's interpretation of legislation. I think we both know how skewed CIVEA's interpretations of things can be.

"Proceeds" are money gained from an act or event. Paying a creditor directly is not as a result of any act or event, therefore the money cannot be deemed "proceeds".

With regards the other thread that you mentioned, I wouldn't pay too much attention to the MP's letter. He has made several mistakes within it, inc.luding off the top of my head, the fact that after the compliance fee was paid, the complete enforcement fee was paid pro-rata. This is incorrect as in order for the whole enforcement fee to have been paid pro-rata, the whole sum (including fees) would have had to have been paid.

[Wombats]

Another bailiff discussion thread.

In order to avoid a problem thankfully worked around elsewhere on the site yesterday, can I reply to ST by just saying this is a typical example of the Magicians Choice.

For anyone really interested in this, if you Google these exact words, you'll find the answer comes up at the top of Google. Read results 1, 2 or 3:

Magicians Choice loophole

[Guest]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

Oh right

So last night I had posted a "potentially valid view" but tonight, my view has been downgraded to a "magicians choice"

I'd personally prefer to have a view rather than just be a repetitive parrot continually quoting other peoples posts. Still, whatever floats your boat.

As I stated previously, the original "pro-rata" scenario that you've posted a link to first appeared on a private CIVEA notice board. I'd wager it was copied, pasted & emailed to TT by a CIVEA member who subsequently posted it elsewhere. If you are unable to comprehend the meaning of the word "proceeds" then that is your problem. Don't let that stop you believing that CIVEA's "magicians choice" is correct though.

You will of course have read in the aforementioned letter from the MP, within which, the court official confirmed that if debtors paid the courts directly, bailiffs would miss out on their fees. Sure sounds like a magicians choice to me. :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Wombats]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

A little uncalled for ST, it was not a dig at you. In order to explain it I'd have had to reproduce that post. It's easier to post a link, but given the potential issues with Doubleslap on here yesterday I wanted to avoid anything confrontational - seems I failed.

This was not meant personally against you. I understand proceeds as I understand them, you understand them differently. Time will tell which of us is correct.

As for:

You will of course have read in the aforementioned letter from the MP, within which, the court official confirmed that if debtors paid the courts directly, bailiffs would miss out on their fees. Sure sounds like a magicians choice to me. :tinysmile_twink_t2:

The EXACT WORDING from the post with the cited MP's letter was:

"So in effect if you had paid the Court prior to the visit then the bailiff would not have been instructed and no costs occurred. As soon as the Court issued the warrant then Bailiff Costs are incurred and do fall to you to pay. There is as I see it no way to avoid the fees. This is what the Ombudsman will find and as such would not uphold the complaint. "

The above is EXACTLY as we tell people on here and VERY different to what you state in your post. If debtors pay the courts directly, the fees are still payable if EA's have been instructed.

[Guest]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

Different to what I state in my post? The actual line that I was referencing reads:

"The court won't be paid until the last penny has been paid as previously customers would pay the court and then the enforcement agent lost their costs."

So if you were telling people different than in my post pre-April 6th then it looks like you were giving people wrong advice. Additionally, if councils were paid minus bailiff visit fees then those fees were unenforceable as well, and there is case law to prove it.

The intention of Parliament may have been to cover any bailiff out of pocket fees (the fact that EA's may "recover fees" tends to confirm this) but the wording of legislation is anything but clear. There is certainly scope for challenge as it stands. You may care to take everything that is stated by CIVEA as gospel, I personally take anything said with a pinch of salt. I do not believe that an interpretation of legislation is a "magicians choice". In addition, I do not advise this debtor or anyone else to attempt to avoid fees. My belief is simply that the council were correct in retaining the full payment and that handing over part of this payment to an EA would have been to the detriment of the taxpayer.

What you have to remember here is that the type of person who IS going to pay the creditor directly is going to be a pretty determined character. He/she will certainly not be phased by any further visits so I fail to see how an EA would recover fees by attempting enforcement in any case. The new fee schedule does not cover for additional abortive visits so it could end up costing agents to chase their fees.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

Recovery of fees for enforcement-related services from the debtor

4. (1) — The enforcement agent may recover from the debtor the fees indicated in the Schedule in accordance with this regulation and regulations 11, 12, 13, 16 and 17, by reference to the stage, or stages, of enforcement for which enforcement-related services have been supplied.

(2) The fees referred to in paragraph (1) may be recovered out of proceeds.

(3) The enforcement agent may recover under this regulation the whole fee provided in the Schedule for a stage where the amount outstanding is paid after the commencement, but before the completion, of that stage.

(4) For the purposes of this regulation, the relevant stage of enforcement is determined according to regulation 5 or 6 as appropriate.

(5) Where the enforcement agent is acting under an enforcement power conferred by a High Court writ—

(a)where the enforcement agent and the debtor enter into a controlled goods agreement which the debtor does not breach, only the first enforcement stage fee may be recovered from the debtor; and

(b)where—

(i)the enforcement agent and the debtor enter into a controlled goods agreement which the debtor breaches; or

(ii)the enforcement agent and the debtor do not enter into a controlled goods agreement,

both the first enforcement stage and second enforcement stage fees may be recovered from the debtor, and the first enforcement stage fee is recoverable where sub-paragraph (ii) applies notwithstanding that the first enforcement stage did not apply.

[Wombats]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

Thank you Johnboy,

I know that looks a nice simple explanation. However, it falls at the first hurdle as we need an equally straightforward definition of "enforcement related services."

You then need an equally simple definition and correct interpretation of "proceeds". You'll find that pursuing these definitions which are critical to the discussion takes you on a much lengthier journey which is explained in the link to the Magician's Choice.

To clarify, the discussion is about the situation where NO enforcement activity by the EA has taken place and the debtor goes into a Magistrates' Court, pays the fine in full at the ATM like machine and obtains a receipt stating the fine is paid in full.

I don't think there is actually much (if any) confusion among posters here about this now. Certainly there is no confusion in my mind, and so I will leave discussion to others if any further discussion is wanted. The link does explain it all in true detail though. :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Johnboy007]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

My opinion is that 'Enforcement' is the actual carrying out, of an act or law.
So related services could be anything from the original Council Authorisation to it's bailiffs, up to and including the EA getting the money.
So if you can stop the Bailiff from lawfully carrying out any part of enforcement of a Control Of Goods warrant. The he can't lawfully charge you for something that never took place.

[Wombats]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

My opinion is that 'Enforcement' is the actual carrying out, of an act or law.
So related services could be anything from the original Council Authorisation to it's bailiffs, up to and including the EA getting the money.
So if you can stop the Bailiff from lawfully carrying out any part of enforcement of a Control Of Goods warrant. The he can't lawfully charge you for something that never took place.

...... which is precisely why you need to follow the links through, and it isn't as simple as posting what you have above. Unfortunately your opinion is incorrect. Enforcement starts the moment the fine is passed for enforcement, regardless of whether or not the EA's have done anything at all. That is when the Compliance Stage commences so a £75 fee becomes due.

I'm not at all surprised you get confused. You do really need to sit down and work through the various pieces of legislation very carefully indeed to get the true picture. :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Guest]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

To start at the beginning here, unfortunately Wombats opinion is also incorrect. "Enforcement related services" is described clearly in 62(5) Schedule 12:

(5)“Enforcement-related services” means anything done under or in connection with an enforcement power, or in connection with obtaining an enforcement power, or any services used for the purposes of a provision of this Schedule or regulations under it.

This tells us that enforcement related services go back further than the compliance stage.

We know from the recent B&S letters that were posted, that debtors goods are bound until the balance (on the NOE) is paid in full. This does not cover for additional fees incurred, after the notice. In other words, debtors goods are bound in accordance with the law, UNTILL the debt is paid.

50(3) of Schedule 12 explains what "the amount outstanding" means:

3)The amount outstanding is the sum of these—(a)the amount of the debt which remains unpaid (or an amount that the creditor agrees to accept in full satisfaction of the debt);
(b)
any amounts recoverable out of proceeds in accordance with regulations under paragraph 62 (costs).

It could be argued that if the creditor is paid directly, then there are no amounts recoverable out of proceeds. In that scenario, 3(b) may not apply.

50(2) of Schedule 12 explains the definition for the word "proceeds":

(2)Proceeds are any of these—
(a)proceeds of sale or disposal of controlled goods;
(b)money taken in exercise of the power, if paragraph 37(1) does not apply to it.

Now even Wombats would struggle to argue that money voluntary handed directly to the creditor is "money taken in exercise of the power"


62(2) of Schedule 12 states:

(2)The regulations may provide for recovery to be out of proceeds or otherwise.

So if there are no proceeds, according to Schedule 12, other means of recovery may be provided by the regulations.

Perhaps though, most damning of all comes from 17(2) of the fees regs:

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply where the enforcement power ceases to be exercisable because the debtor has paid the amount outstanding or that amount has been recovered from proceeds or otherwise.

This regulation is clearly confirming that the enforcement power ceases to be exercisable when the debtor has paid the amount outstanding. (the amount outstanding when creditors are paid directly is the balance of the original debt as nothing is recoverable out of proceeds.)

[Wombats]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

See above. :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Wombats]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

As and when I require the input of TT, I shall ask her myself.

I certainly do not need nor crave, the opinions of her tea boy.

Quite!:tinysmile_twink_t2: See above.

[Crazy council]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

Hi Peacfullish

My opinion.

Initially, you do owe the bailiffs, but, since you have now paid the council direct ( thats what i would have advised ), maybe you can play the system a bit. What was your appeal ? if you can find any fault in the process with the council, they will withdraw the extra charges.

try not be there when the bailiff comes and don't leave a car on the drive.

[Guest]

Re: Council tax arrears paid in full Bailiff fees outstanding... please help

Cant believe this argument is still rumbling on and there are peole who do not understand the situation.

Further reading and information here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...s-this-a-TRICK

Basically as far as the bailiff(I prefer the word bailiff) is concerned the fee and the amount due under the order are the same thing they will keep pestering you until the amount due is paid, they have full support in the legislature so to do.

Milo (TT) is the one to seek for anything bailiff related if you want reliable advise, she is eminently qualified and has an implacable history of giving reliable and honest advice over many years

(Plodder and Wombats arn't to bad either)

\section 58 actually says

58(1)This paragraph applies where the debtor pays the amount outstanding in full—


Amount outstanding is detailed in section 50 as" proceeds"

50(1)Proceeds from the exercise of an enforcement power must be used to pay the amount outstanding.

(b)any amounts recoverable out of proceeds in accordance with regulations under paragraph 62 (costs).

\\\\\costs aare detaied in section 62 as

62(1)Regulations may make provision for the recovery by any person from the debtor of amounts in respect of costs of enforcement-related services.
(2)The regulations may provide for recovery to be out of proceeds or otherwise.
(3)The amount recoverable under the regulations in any case is to be determined by or under the regulations.
(4)The regulations may in particular provide for the amount, if disputed, to be assessed in accordance with rules of court.
(5)“Enforcement-related services” means anything done under or in connection with an enforcement power, or in connection with obtaining an enforcement power, or any services used for the purposes of a provision of this Schedule or regulations under it.

No magic get out of jail card there unfortunately