The EU referendum

[pt2537]

I dont really like getting involved in politics, however the EU in or out vote and more importantly the recent discussion i had with a person who it seemed had been brainwashed to* “vote leave” with arguments that simply fell over at the first hurdle. Human Rights. I was told that the Human Rights Act […]


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[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

I dont really like getting involved in politics, however the EU in or out vote and more importantly the recent discussion i had with a person who it seemed had been brainwashed to* “vote leave” with arguments that simply fell over at the first hurdle. Human Rights. I was told that the Human Rights Act […]


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The EU and European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) are entirely different. This is not about brainwashing and the Human Rights Act (HRA) 1998 does not come from the EU. The EU is about trade and the single market notwithstanding other things, whereas ECHR (or HRA 1998, that is ECHR made law in the UK) is about the basic rights the state (UK) gives to its citizens.

[Fred]

Re: The EU referendum

It's my view that buffoon Boris should stick with Have I got News For You, the motivation for his leave campaign is purely down to power greed & as for some of his weirdo supporters, well, says it all for me.

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[wales01man]

Re: The EU referendum

Both sides are spouting crap claims that cannot be proved or predicted sad that a serious issue for the UK has become a farce

[pt2537]

Re: The EU referendum

The EU and European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) are entirely different. This is not about brainwashing and the Human Rights Act (HRA) 1998 does not come from the EU. The EU is about trade and the single market notwithstanding other things, whereas ECHR (or HRA 1998, that is ECHR made law in the UK) is about the basic rights the state (UK) gives to its citizens.

Sorry, it is about Brainwashing, when a person is told what to say and then goes off hopelessly spouting the shyte theyve been fed its what i call being brainwashed. And whats more people also need to think hard about what leaving the EU means, does it mean we get control of our boarders to stop immigration? Nope, it doesnt, only leaving the EEA and the single market means that we could control everything, and lets hope that doesnt happen.

[Sparkie1723]

Re: The EU referendum

I agree with pt quite a lot.........whilst serving in the army for over 12 years............I did a course on different types of brainwashing and to me that is what is happening now with this EU stuff.................I put one concern I have to everyone who supports the out campaigners.
Britain is an Island......and our " borders are the shore lines of our Island.......At present being in the EU France is SLOWING DOWN the influx of migrants by the Camps they have set up and the French along with our police, customs etc are working together to keep the low of migrants into the UK.
We are helped to police and control our borders............one thing I'm certain of if we leave the EU ....the French and other EU countries will say OK you Brits ... we won't stop anyone trying to get to the UK and then you'll see our Lorry drivers the Channel Tunnel will become a walkway for immigrants...........does anyone think we have the man power to make our borders secure????................NO Chance what so ever..............THinkers out there think about that........How are you going to stop boat after boat dropping immigrants off and stop them getting on lorries.................they could even drive their own lorries through the Tunnel ........come on get real.
WE will never have control of our Borders out of the EU....Not enough Customs Officers ...Not enough navy ships ...not enough police.

Sparkies Ramble some will say.................but think about my ramblings " some of them???!!! " are pretty near the truth.

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

Sorry, it is about Brainwashing, when a person is told what to say and then goes off hopelessly spouting the shyte theyve been fed its what i call being brainwashed. And whats more people also need to think hard about what leaving the EU means, does it mean we get control of our boarders to stop immigration? Nope, it doesnt, only leaving the EEA and the single market means that we could control everything, and lets hope that doesnt happen.

"I dont really like getting involved in politics, however the EU in or out vote and more importantly the recent discussion i had with a person who it seemed had been brainwashed.....

How does one define brain-washing? The following is a psychological definition: "Indoctrination that forces people to abandon their beliefs in favor of another set of beliefs. Usually associated with military and political interrogation and religious conversion, brainwashing attempts, through prolonged stress, to break down an individual's physical and mental defenses."

1) is a person whose knowledge is limited the same as brain-washing? I dare say not, because it's not known whether the individual has had a change of mind in that his or her beliefs were previously different than they were originally. 2) was there such an indoctrination that forces said person to change their original mindset with such pressure that the same can be said to succumb to that pressure. I dare say, a resounding no.

"...to “vote leave” with arguments that simply fell over at the first hurdle."

Did those arguments fall at the first hurdle as per your commentary, is the question.

"Human Rights.
I was told that the Human Rights Act was a result of the EU. I was told that we couldn’t deport someone because they had a pet cat and that if we didn’t leave the EU we couldn’t change this."

"To be honest, such arguments show a lack of understanding of the EU, the European Convention on Human Rights, and most importantly history following WW2. Human Rights aren’t a creature of the EU!!. They weren’t brought about by the EU, in fact Human Rights were brought into UK law by Labour with the Human Rights Act 1998."

Broadly speaking, the EU and ECHR are not poles apart. The UK's written Constitution has several sources, notwithstanding constitutional statutes, constitutional common law, royal prerogatives, constitutional conventions, and of course legal commentators such as A V Dicey for context and legal thinking. The original version of the ECHR was signed in 1950 and the earliest form of the EU was the Treaty of Rome signed in 1957. Now the EU and the ECHR's are both sources in UK constitutional law, ie through latter being the Human Rights Act (HRA) 1998 which is not see deep-seated or entrenched, whereas the EU is more mandatory and substantive in its terms and in its affect on the UK's constitution. Reading a few online sources does not make you an expert on the broader aspects of the EU source or the ECHR source of the UK's constitution.

It is unlikely you could have the European Convention without the EU ergo the EU adopted the largely or broadly European Charter of Human Rights. So, your friend at whom your directed your distain is not at all far from the truth, in my view as someone who has studied EU law formally notwithstanding UK constitutional law.

[wales01man]

Re: The EU referendum

Brainwashing those who want to vote leave? Think this is an insult to their intelligence if the out side are being brainwashed why are the in side not.
Before I get asked I would vote out but only in the terms of interference with our laws and parliament have control not Brussels or a bunch of foreign non elected dictators

[pt2537]

Re: The EU referendum

Brainwashing those who want to vote leave? Think this is an insult to their intelligence if the out side are being brainwashed why are the in side not. Before I get asked I would vote out but only in the terms of interference with our laws and parliament have control not Brussels or a bunch of foreign non elected dictators

Sorry but you really had to be there when the conversation took place. I was stopped in the street by a canvasser who sought to influence my vote by relying on factually incorrect arguments. I call it brainwashing but if you wish to flag it as something else feel free. My point is give us facts not false fiction that is based on nonsense.

[enaid]

Re: The EU referendum

Well the EU employment laws that were supposedly so good for us were ignoredby him http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...e-live-8129264 and he did well out of it, sadly not so his work force.

[pt2537]

Re: The EU referendum

Brainwashing those who want to vote leave? Think this is an insult to their intelligence if the out side are being brainwashed why are the in side not. Before I get asked I would vote out but only in the terms of interference with our laws and parliament have control not Brussels or a bunch of foreign non elected dictators

Have a read of this http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016...-brexit-debate Its actually very accurate about the UK laws and how they are made etc and brings it into context

[pt2537]

Re: The EU referendum

It is unlikely you could have the European Convention without the EU ergo the EU adopted the largely or broadly European Charter of Human Rights. So, your friend at whom your directed your distain is not at all far from the truth, in my view as someone who has studied EU law formally notwithstanding UK constitutional law.

With the greatest of respect, i too studied EU Law, Constitutional Law and Administrative Law. Id simply point out that the Human Rights Act 1998 could be repealed without leaving the EU, that is a fact that this Government are looking at doing now irrespective of whether we stay or go. So it is wrong to suggest that the HRA and the ECHR is a creature of the EU which is contingent on our membership of the EU.

[Fred]

Re: The EU referendum

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

Have a read of this http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016...-brexit-debate Its actually very accurate about the UK laws and how they are made etc and brings it into context

The truth is that potentially leaving the EU is an unprecedented thing and no one can be sure or even partially certain of its effect on the UK's economy. In my view, the EU is a business entity and profits those in business or in politics. It may affect consumers in terms of price in the short term, flights may be slightly more expensive to EU countries temporarily. I think this more about control like some Eton, once a boy - but now older in adulthood, club for the uber rich and privileged class in all EU member states (countries) largely in any event. We do know, well I know, that the EU is intent on 'bringing peoples to an ever closer legal and political Union. So, at some point the EU could in legal theory take over its 28 countries substantive legal systems and leave the UK to deal with trivial matters. However, if it were to happen and it's a big if despite the Treaty of Rome's wording/ terms/ express implicit interpretation, UK/ EU political agendas by the relevant elites, it's not likely to happen for several decades at least. So, in the short term staying in the EU may not be so bad if it's worth it on a costs versus analysis benefit, but in the long term, insofar as its permanence is concerned is a rather monumental mistake.

[Openlaw15]

Re: The EU referendum

With the greatest of respect, i too studied EU Law, Constitutional Law and Administrative Law. Id simply point out that the Human Rights Act 1998 could be repealed without leaving the EU, that is a fact that this Government are looking at doing now irrespective of whether we stay or go. So it is wrong to suggest that the HRA and the ECHR is a creature of the EU which is contingent on our membership of the EU.

You did refer to online stuff so it raised the presumption you weren't formally educated in said law. However, as you have i'll provide the following. If you studied UK Constitutional law's good legal journals you'd realise that HRA develops constitutional common law and said common law withstands any associated constitutional statute ie the Human Rights Act, Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, if it were in legal theory to be repealed. To a lesser extent although very influenced by EU principles, the Equality Acts could be repealed but modern common principles would like stand the test of time in the season of democracy as it were, if in the alternative Parliament could so do away with the constitutional protections in which its citizens enjoy, it would go against the moral and legal dimension of the rule of law.

So, in legal theory Parliament can make any law it so desires and in can equally, in theory anyway, also repeal any Parliament Act. However, statute in the UK's constitution has a certain hierarchal effect in that one is potentially constitutional ie HRA, PACE et al...but others are simply not and potentially could be so repealed. In my view, Parliament doesn't really have the power it once enjoyed, as the executive has that power by an large.