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with thanks to ed. from PenaltyActionGroup
Following the recent Judgement there are a couple of paragraphs that caught our eye; namely paragraph 96 and 445.
Prior to the Judgement ed. has requested a copy of the terms & Conditions of his personal Lloyds account as it stood at the accounts inception; this was the response;
On further investigation it would appear the only terms relating to the account in 2003 were the following;
Lloyds have consistently neglected to appear in court to defend any of the claims against them, this put together with the £1.8 million in unstaisfied County Court Judgements against them, and their neglect to enter evidence to the contrary in the test case, appears to point to their knowledge that a massive number of their personal current account holders are entitled to full refunds of overdraft charges under the penalty charges principle under common law.[/quote]
"If no full written terms and conditions were in place prior to the introduction of Lloyds TSB's most recent variations, the Bank would have no legal or contractual basis to vary ANY terms on current accounts that were opened during that period. They would not even be able to change any applicable interest rates without an agreed contractual term giving the Bank the power and permission to do so. Without that contractual term, which would be within any full written terms and conditions, allowing the Bank to change the original agreement, existing Lloyds TSB customers prior to November 07 would potentially not be legally or contractually held to any subsequently new or revised Terms and Conditions. - In fact an argument could possibly be made now for all pre Nov 07 Lloyds TSB customers with an overdraft that the Bank themselves have, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, unlawfully rescinded the original contracts that were in place and all the Banks customers can potentially simply walk away with any debt owed to the Bank being unenforceable." - PAG
The possible implications of this are unthinkable for Lloyds. Any customers who opened their account prior to November 2007 and who have not signed `new` agreements are still subject to the implied terms of Common Law and not the Bank stealth Terms & Conditions. Any charges levied previously or indeed currently are still subject to the terms of the UTCCR 1999 and Common Law and Statute a major blow for Lloyds in the OFT Test Case. In essense, this means that any claimants litigating against Lloyds TSB can continue to consider their charges a disproportionate penalty, despite the recent ruling by Mr Justice Andrew Smith in favour of the remaining Banks.
Following the recent Judgement there are a couple of paragraphs that caught our eye; namely paragraph 96 and 445.
96. The Relevant Terms have recently been introduced by the Banks into their contracts with established customers, many of whom will have had a current account with their Bank for some considerable time. The terms of all eight Banks now provide that the Banks may introduce changes, generally by giving notice to their customers. Apart from Lloyds TSB, the evidence is that the Banks had comparable provisions in their previous terms, and it seems likely that they introduced the present terms into their contracts with existing customers by exercising that contractual power. However, the evidence about that is not entirely satisfactory, my decision does not depend upon this question and I make no finding about it. As far as Lloyds TSB is concerned, there is (perhaps understandably in view of the issues raised in the pleadings) no evidence before me whether it had any contractual power to introduce changes to its contracts with its existing customers.
445. It is against this background that I consider whether I should make the third proposed declaration. The proposed declaration itself refers to the “process by which the Relevant … Charges were agreed by [or otherwise became part of the contract between] the bank and its customers”.
The wording reflects uncertainty about how the Relevant Terms were introduced into the Banks’ contracts with individual customers, and the evidence about this is unsatisfactory. As I explained in paragraph 96 above, all of the Banks now have the right under their standard terms to give customers thirty days’ notice of a change of terms, and it seems probable that many of them used a comparable power in their previous terms to introduce the Relevant Terms into their existing contracts with individual customers, but there is no clear evidence about this; and indeed in the case of Lloyds’ TSB there is no evidence that it had any such power before its current terms of November 2007, and there is no evidence about how the Relevant Terms were introduced into its existing contracts.
The wording reflects uncertainty about how the Relevant Terms were introduced into the Banks’ contracts with individual customers, and the evidence about this is unsatisfactory. As I explained in paragraph 96 above, all of the Banks now have the right under their standard terms to give customers thirty days’ notice of a change of terms, and it seems probable that many of them used a comparable power in their previous terms to introduce the Relevant Terms into their existing contracts with individual customers, but there is no clear evidence about this; and indeed in the case of Lloyds’ TSB there is no evidence that it had any such power before its current terms of November 2007, and there is no evidence about how the Relevant Terms were introduced into its existing contracts.
Originally posted by Lloyds in a letter to ed.
On further investigation it would appear the only terms relating to the account in 2003 were the following;
Lloyds TSB - current account legal 2003
Classic account
Debit card purchase protection, Direct Debit benefit and accidental death benefit cover are not provided automatically - please call into your local branch to register. As with all insurance policies certain exclusions apply. Full details including terms and conditions are available from your local branch.
Direct debit benefit - you must pay a minimum of 3 out of 5 of the following household bills by direct debit: gas, water, electricity, telephone (not mobile phones) and council tax. You must be aged between 18 - 64 inclusive.
Accidental death benefit - make both these arrangements and you will be covered for the full �10,000. If you arrange only one of these you will still benefit from �5,000 worth of cover. You must be aged 18 - 64 inclusive.
Full written details of all borrowing services mentioned in this website and written quotations are available on request. For customers in England and Wales: Lloyds TSB Bank plc, PO Box 112, Canons House, Canons Way, Bristol BS99 7LB. For customers in Scotland: Lloyds TSB Scotland plc, PO Box 177, Henry Duncan House, 120 George Street, Edinburgh EH2 4TS. Lending is dependent on an assessment of your financial position. You must be 18 or over to apply. We may need security from you. Overdrafts are repayable on demand.
General Insurance advice is provided by Lloyds TSB Insurance Services Limited (Company No. 968406). Loan protection is underwritten by a number of insurers including our related company, Lloyds TSB General Insurance Limited (Company No. 204373). Both Lloyds TSB companies are registered in England, 25 Gresham Street, London EC2V 7HN. Members of the General Insurance Standards Council.
Click here for information about�Classic account.
Classic account
Debit card purchase protection, Direct Debit benefit and accidental death benefit cover are not provided automatically - please call into your local branch to register. As with all insurance policies certain exclusions apply. Full details including terms and conditions are available from your local branch.
Direct debit benefit - you must pay a minimum of 3 out of 5 of the following household bills by direct debit: gas, water, electricity, telephone (not mobile phones) and council tax. You must be aged between 18 - 64 inclusive.
Accidental death benefit - make both these arrangements and you will be covered for the full �10,000. If you arrange only one of these you will still benefit from �5,000 worth of cover. You must be aged 18 - 64 inclusive.
Full written details of all borrowing services mentioned in this website and written quotations are available on request. For customers in England and Wales: Lloyds TSB Bank plc, PO Box 112, Canons House, Canons Way, Bristol BS99 7LB. For customers in Scotland: Lloyds TSB Scotland plc, PO Box 177, Henry Duncan House, 120 George Street, Edinburgh EH2 4TS. Lending is dependent on an assessment of your financial position. You must be 18 or over to apply. We may need security from you. Overdrafts are repayable on demand.
General Insurance advice is provided by Lloyds TSB Insurance Services Limited (Company No. 968406). Loan protection is underwritten by a number of insurers including our related company, Lloyds TSB General Insurance Limited (Company No. 204373). Both Lloyds TSB companies are registered in England, 25 Gresham Street, London EC2V 7HN. Members of the General Insurance Standards Council.
Click here for information about�Classic account.
"If no full written terms and conditions were in place prior to the introduction of Lloyds TSB's most recent variations, the Bank would have no legal or contractual basis to vary ANY terms on current accounts that were opened during that period. They would not even be able to change any applicable interest rates without an agreed contractual term giving the Bank the power and permission to do so. Without that contractual term, which would be within any full written terms and conditions, allowing the Bank to change the original agreement, existing Lloyds TSB customers prior to November 07 would potentially not be legally or contractually held to any subsequently new or revised Terms and Conditions. - In fact an argument could possibly be made now for all pre Nov 07 Lloyds TSB customers with an overdraft that the Bank themselves have, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, unlawfully rescinded the original contracts that were in place and all the Banks customers can potentially simply walk away with any debt owed to the Bank being unenforceable." - PAG
The possible implications of this are unthinkable for Lloyds. Any customers who opened their account prior to November 2007 and who have not signed `new` agreements are still subject to the implied terms of Common Law and not the Bank stealth Terms & Conditions. Any charges levied previously or indeed currently are still subject to the terms of the UTCCR 1999 and Common Law and Statute a major blow for Lloyds in the OFT Test Case. In essense, this means that any claimants litigating against Lloyds TSB can continue to consider their charges a disproportionate penalty, despite the recent ruling by Mr Justice Andrew Smith in favour of the remaining Banks.
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