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Hello, my son who is a student, has received a Parking Charge Notice - a notice to keeper - through the post - for overstaying by half an hour in a one hour car park (its not possible to pay for any longer stay) 'run' by Civil Enforcement. I nearly paid (logged on to CE and ready to push the button) then took another look because it looked just like a Penalty Notice. Very misleading. Can he challenge the charge on the basis that the charge document is misleading? They cannot be acting in good faith by emulating real Penalty Charges can they? He had just joined the gym that is by the car park and the patrons of the gym use it as well as shoppers. It is a retail park car park and there are other companies there, Homebase, Topps, etc. My son understood he was allowed 2 hours free parking as he'd joined the gym. There is nothing about that on the parking signs (should there be?) but there is a parking machine inside the gym where he should have entered his registration number. He didn't know he had to do that so didn't take any notice! The signage in the car park is not particularly clear, especially a small blue sign, high up on a pole (there is more than one of these) with a cartoon car, eyes for headlamps, smiley mouth radiator etc and there is a speech bubble coming out of the car's mouth saying 'if you overstay the one hour you are agreeing to pay £100). The sign does not look very obviously a parking terms and conditions sign, in fact it looks just like it was designed not to be understood as a parking terms and conditions sign. I think there was also a sign as he went into the car park. I've asked him to get more pictures. He didn't get a windscreen ticket so he couldn't take photos at the time and was not sent the photographic evidence they say that have (is this fair?). I think there must have been APNR? Could he argue that the signage was not clear and no contract or whatever they claim is created when you enter a car park was made. Also the amount claimed is £100 (£60 if you pay early) which is more than the local council charge. It seems a lot for overstaying half an hour in a free car park where he genuinely thought he had two hours. I've heard about the case of Parking Eye v Beavis waiting to go to the Supreme Court where the cost of the parking was £85 and held not to be excessive, well here I think £100 is excessive, that's assuming there was a contract or licence or whatever created in the first place. I've also heard that the PE v Beavis case might be confined on its particular facts but don't really know what impact it is making now. As you can tell I am confused about what to do. Pay up or appeal and maybe win; or lose and risk my son going to the county court. Normally I'd just pay but the PCN seems so deliberately underhand that I think fighting it would be better. Then again, maybe you will think my son was clearly in the wrong. Can you help please. Your site seems to have lots of good stuff on what to do but I am not sure what to do on these facts.
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Parking Charge Notice - Civil Enforcement
Hi all, I'm a new member, just joined to share information on parking charge notices - its been a steep learning curve so far. I've posted a question in the parking charges notice section about signage and so on. I'd really like to know the best way to respond to these notices pending the Supreme Court's decision in the test case of Parking Eye v Beavis. It doesn't seem that ignoring them is the right thing to do any more. :tinysmile_cry_t:
Piccolo -
Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
Unclear signage is a winning point but a point that requires evidence to make.
Post up the notice as they may have screwed up on keeper liability (assuming they don't know who was driving, if notkeep it to yourself)
Complain to the gym too.
M1Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
Thank you. Here is the cartoon car but there are other signs saying 'free parking' and conditions apply so maybe not unclear signage after all. Then again, who'd think a speech bubble from a little blue car was enough to create a contract to pay £100. One of the signs refers to getting the keepers details so they've covered themselves on that one. I've other pics if you want them. Will write to the gym and may still appeal it. Thanks for you help.Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
Weird sign. Probably enough nowadays after Beavis however keeper liability is nothing to do with signage it's all about the notice to keeper
M1Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
Arghh, bit of a minefield this. Here is the PCN
https://www.dropbox.com/s/76as9mufk8...20001.JPG?dl=0
Oh, bit of a minefield this, Should I just pay. My son tells me he's parked more than once in the car park without keying in his reg number as he didn't know he had to. Haven't received any other PCN's yet but there could be.
Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
The sign doesn't mention entering the registration number and the notice says it was for overstaying.
If they have no idea who was driving the notice fails entirely should they wish to pursue the registered keeper.
I would appeal as the registered kkeeper and tell them to chase the driver (difficult when you won't tell them who it is !)
M1Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
Thank you very much for this. So even though there's that law about going for the registered keeper if they don't know the driver, I can still appeal. Will give it a go and let you know what happens. Thanks again.Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
The gym have emailed my son to say that he did key in his reg. number on the 28th after all but did not key out (he didn't know he had to do that) and the gym sign does not say that either. They gym says they don't own the land so cannot help further with the appeal apart from giving him details of the times he's visited. The PCN records the time he left on the 28th even if the gym does not record it. He says an hour and a half. So I've no idea why CE have issued this notice. Should he now say he was the driver but CE has no valid reason for applying to the DVLA because he arrived and left within the 2 hours allowed and agreed with the gym? Or go with the Notice to Keeper being wrong and telling them to pursue the driver. I offered to help my son with this because he's in the middle of final exams...I didn't realise it would be so complicated.
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
Actually (after a phone call) the gym have a record of him going into the gym using his membership card (not a record of him keying in the registration number) and have sent us a record of all his attendances. So now I should just say he is the keeper of the vehicle, their notice is incorrect and ask for a POPLA number/details. The 14 days for paying the lesser sum of £60 is up on Monday does that matter. Sorry to keep on about this. Thank you,Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
I would appeal. The option to pay £60 will disappear.
Dear Sirs,
I, as registered keeper, wish to invoke your appeals procedure. The driver did not see any signs and in any event did not exceed the time allowed for gym members. I also note your PCN (NTK) fails to comply with PoFA 2012 schedule 4.
I am under no statutory obligation to name the driver.
Please accept my appeal or issue a popla code.
Yours etc
If they reject the appeal and issue a popla code come back for help.
M1Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
Thank you SO much for this. Will let you know how he gets on.Comment
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Re: Parking Charge Notice - Civil Enforcement
Hi, you kindly helped with a response to Civil Enforcement's Parking Charge Notice (NTK) after my son got a notice for staying for an hour and a half in a 1 hour car park where gym members are allowed 2 hours but have to key in their registration number at a machine in the gym. This was on 11.5.15. He sent a letter, with the wording you suggested, on 24.5.15 via the CE service email address on the PCN asking them to cancel or start the appeal procedure.. No non-delivery message was received. There was no response but today 12.6.15 he's received a PCN reminder stating that the full £100 is owed. Should he tell CE that they have ignored the appeal request and explanation and should have given him a code? He's not sure what the next step should be. Thanks in advance.Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
Contact CEL and ask what is going on. They shouldn't pursue payment whilst an appeal is on going.
M1Comment
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Re: Civil Enforcement - Cartoon Style Signs
Ok will do. Thanks very much.
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