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Civil Enforcement Ltd County Court Business Centre Claim

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  • Civil Enforcement Ltd County Court Business Centre Claim

    Hi everybody,

    I received a county court business centre claim letter yesterday for a "parking notice" which I have contested from day one and I'll explain why.

    I usually use the train station's own parking when I go into London but last year there was work being done so it was full and I was getting late so this was the first time I used a PhoneandPay car park which was supposed to be £2.50 for a day. I downloaded the app and it all went wrong from there. It crashed every time and I kept sending through the crash report. I took screenshots of the app crashing. I called the number they had listed and no answer so I left a message telling them where I'm parked and that I'm trying to pay and to call me back. At one point it asked for my card details for payment and I entered them thinking finally they're in. When I didn't get any clear acknowledgement or confirmation receipt of payment I kept trying to access the app to no avail so I emailed them in the early evening trying to pay!

    They called me the next day in the early evening saying their systems don't take back payments so they will offer me a "late payment charge" of £20 or I may OR MAY NOT receive a penalty. I refused point blank as they had no right to change their terms for their service and I was not going to pay for something that wasn't my fault.

    That was the original issue. Since then there have been so many other things that the entire case is convoluted at this point with so many other back and forths I am sick of the entire thing!
    In short:
    1) They sent a notice over 6 weeks later at least which I don't have anymore but my original appeal was just a scrawled out letter I stuck in the postbox with a regular stamp referring them to the company phone calls and email. Have a sister and friend who can attest to this but no post office receipt (which months down the line they came back to requesting)

    2) I had letters from 2 different debt collectors months later and ignored them as I figured they must be a mistake.

    3) I got a QDR solicitor letter to which I then responded again to all 3 and called the PhoneandPay people again who all came back with different things. PandP said appeal again through Civil Enforcement website which I did, referring to all the past stuff with attached screenshots etc and referenced by sickness. They responded very quickly saying its way after appeal date so we're no longer dealing with it get lost. QDR sent me a letter saying they haven't heard from me which this time I kept as this is what I thought happened the first time. They then emailed separately at a later date saying they need proof of original appeal or I have to pay this trumped-up charge which I refused and told them about the triggering of my condition with this nonsense. I'd like to point out that they also claim to have sent out the original penalty notice within a week which was a complete and utter lie. And the 3rd company I just never heard from.

    4) QDR gave up and all of a sudden Civil Enforcement decided they are now dealing with it again and demanded payment. I responded with a detailed letter using a template I found on here looking at the contract and mentioned the issues with their own signage too and that I am keeping all this and they know it will be used in any court proceeding should they insist on wasting the judges time. They came back with we can't give you the name of our clients due to data protection (the client I apparently entered a contract with). They addressed nothing at all from the 5-page letter I sent.

    5) I had started developing symptoms over the past 5 months, ended up having a full-blown relapse and now receive the court notice.

    I don't even know where to start with this, I am livid at the audacity of these hustlers and refuse to capitulate as I know I went above and beyond to pay the stupid £2.50 and they have known it since the beginning. I want to defend this but I am not sure how I am supposed to send the acknowledgement properly to give me the 28 day period etc and how I am to work out what counter-claim I should pursue in terms of the harassment and distress physical and emotional.

    Do I have a case?

    X
    Last edited by Lyat; 18th April 2019, 22:10:PM.
    Tags: charges, court

  • #2
    This is the particulars of claim and pictures of the signs. The terms and conditions are not clear at all in my opinion as they just say "You" not driver or reg keeper etc and says in one place that you pay within 10 minutes and in another 28 days to pay- which is it? As you'll recall from the above the company actually said they do not take back payments so are they in breach of their own terms and conditions? Also, there is no contract I have entered into that states anything about a late or alternative £20 parking charge contract I have entered or agreed to.

    I read someplace that I need to request the information they intend to use or something and any correspondence they sent to me? How do I do this? Is it just a bog standard letter or do I send them a cir/sar (sorry if I've got those acronyms wrong )

    Please do help as I am finding it difficult to sleep!

    Thanks guys x
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Lyat; 18th April 2019, 23:08:PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      You acknowledge on line using the details and password on the form. This gives you 33 days from the date of issue to get your defence to the court.

      Yes, the failure was purely down to the failure of their equipment and you should not be held responsible for that. Did a payment eventually go through? Have you kept a copy of your call log to show that you attempted to make payments?

      Comment


      • #4
        Do you still have the original (1st) postal notice to keeper?
        If so, could you post up a pic? (front & rear, redact personal info but leave all times/dates visible.)

        ostell
        Poss bye laws?
        CAVEAT LECTOR

        This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

        You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
        Cohen, Herb


        There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
        gets his brain a-going.
        Phelps, C. C.


        "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
        The last words of John Sedgwick

        Comment


        • #5
          I have a screenshot photos of the call I made to them, of the app not working, the email I sent them the same day and 2 tweets to the app company from the next day detailing what happened. Would this suffice?

          The payment didn't go through as their app simply wasn't working.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
            Do you still have the original (1st) postal notice to keeper?
            If so, could you post up a pic? (front & rear, redact personal info but leave all times/dates visible.)

            ostell
            Poss bye laws?
            I don't have the first or original one. I started keeping correspondence once I realised they hadn't just made a mistake and actually intended to harrass me. Should I request them?

            Comment


            • #7
              Probably is byelaws etc.

              Comment


              • #8
                So what should I do next? What is /are the bylaws you are referencing? Shall I write my defence and then maybe attach it for you to look at? I would like to see what evidence etc they have or actually basing their argument or claim on.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lyat View Post
                  So what should I do next? What is /are the bylaws you are referencing? Shall I write my defence and then maybe attach it for you to look at? I would like to see what evidence etc they have or actually basing their argument or claim on.
                  Railway premises (inc lands within their boundary) & simlarly airports, harbours & most highways are governed via bye laws.
                  If so, they are not 'relevant land' for the purposes of private parking charges; contraventions are subject to penalty charges & are not heard in county courts,
                  The problem is that it is very difficult to obtain evidence of same....the authorities (railway companies, harbour commissions etc)..... are very reluctant to admit the fact.
                  But, just as private parking co's cannot (or should not) issue PCNs on the highway, neither should they on 'bye law' land.
                  What railway stn is it?
                  Last edited by charitynjw; 31st May 2019, 03:48:AM.
                  CAVEAT LECTOR

                  This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                  You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                  Cohen, Herb


                  There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                  gets his brain a-going.
                  Phelps, C. C.


                  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                  The last words of John Sedgwick

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by charitynjw View Post

                    Railway premises (inc lands within their boundary) & simlarly airports, harbours & most highways are governed via bye laws.
                    If so, they are not 'relevant land' for the purposes of private parking charges; contraventions are subject to penalty charges & are not heard in county courts,
                    The problem is that it is very difficult to obtain evidence of same....the authorities (railway companies, haarbour commissions etc)..... are very reluctant to admit the fact.
                    But, just as private parking co's cannot (or should not) issue PCNs on the highway, neither should they on 'bye law' land.
                    What railway stn is it?
                    It's Crawley station although they have aptly called the carpark "Overline House" which is the old building of mainly empty offices that is right next to the station over the railway line, hence Overline House.

                    The green arrow is pointing to the train stations own car park (where I normally park) and the 2 orange ones are pointing to the private car parks (the second arrow down is the one I parked at)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This would suggest that it is railway land,
                      Attached Files
                      CAVEAT LECTOR

                      This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                      You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                      Cohen, Herb


                      There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                      gets his brain a-going.
                      Phelps, C. C.


                      "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                      The last words of John Sedgwick

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        & this
                        Attached Files
                        CAVEAT LECTOR

                        This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                        You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                        Cohen, Herb


                        There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                        gets his brain a-going.
                        Phelps, C. C.


                        "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                        The last words of John Sedgwick

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
                          & this
                          Thank you for these docs, I've just been reading through them.

                          Does this mean they are not allowed to allowed to issue PCNs at all? What bye law specifically stops them from doing this? I have been reading the documents but can't find a specific bye law they are breaking/ breaching. I'm still researching so I can put together a strong case.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lyat View Post

                            Thank you for these docs, I've just been reading through them.

                            Does this mean they are not allowed to allowed to issue PCNs at all? What bye law specifically stops them from doing this? I have been reading the documents but can't find a specific bye law they are breaking/ breaching. I'm still researching so I can put together a strong case.
                            Chapter & verse!

                            SCHEDULE 4

                            Recovery of unpaid parking charges

                            Introductory

                            1(1)This Schedule applies where—

                            (a)the driver of a vehicle is required by virtue of a relevant obligation to pay parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on relevant land; and......
                            3(1)In this Schedule “relevant land” means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than—

                            (a)a highway maintainable at the public expense (within the meaning of section 329(1) of the Highways Act 1980);

                            (b)a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority;

                            (c)any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control.

                            (2)In sub-paragraph (1)(b)—

                            “parking place” has the meaning given by section 32(4)(b) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984;

                            “traffic authority” means each of the following—
                            (a)

                            the Secretary of State;
                            (b)

                            the Welsh Ministers;
                            (c)

                            Transport for London;
                            (d)

                            the Common Council of the City of London;
                            (e)

                            the council of a county, county borough, London borough or district;
                            (f)

                            a parish or community council;
                            (g)

                            the Council of the Isles of Scilly.

                            (3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph

                            (1)(c) the parking of a vehicle on land is “subject to statutory control” if any statutory provision imposes a liability (whether criminal or civil, and whether in the form of a fee or charge or a penalty of any kind) in respect of the parking on that land of vehicles generally or of vehicles of a description that includes the vehicle in question.

                            (4) In sub-paragraph (3) “statutory provision” means any provision (apart from this Schedule) contained in—

                            (a)any Act (including a local or private Act), whenever passed; or

                            (b)any subordinate legislation, whenever made,

                            and for this purpose “subordinate legislation” means an Order in Council or any order, regulations, byelaws or other legislative instrument.
                            http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...dule/4/enacted


                            CAVEAT LECTOR

                            This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                            You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                            Cohen, Herb


                            There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                            gets his brain a-going.
                            Phelps, C. C.


                            "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                            The last words of John Sedgwick

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have, over the past couple of years, fought with various authorities re 'relevant land/bye law' issues.
                              All of them were very reluctant to admit the fact. (Maybe because it opened the door to the possibility that, if it became public knowledge, they would be up a *certain creek* .........without a paddle?)
                              CAVEAT LECTOR

                              This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                              You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                              Cohen, Herb


                              There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                              gets his brain a-going.
                              Phelps, C. C.


                              "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                              The last words of John Sedgwick

                              Comment

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