Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

[Sparkie1723]

This morning M’s Daughter Lyn rang and said if I ran M down town she would meet her outside ASDA at 11.30 am take her shopping and for a meal.
So I took her down, I couldn’t park close to where her daughter was waiting and there were no disabled spaces near ASADA entrance, they were all full was so I pulled into the normal Car spaces, in fact I “Straddled” two spaces to let M out as close to ASDA entrance as possible ( she can’t walk far ).
I got out of the car and helped M out and just walked her about 25 yards to where Lyn was standing.
When I go back to the car I realised that M had forgotten to take her umbrella so I ran back and gave it to her.
Went back to the car and drove home. We are only 4 minutes away by car from ASDA and I was back home at 11.35 am
When I got back hone I spotted this on the windscreen in a little yellow plastic wallet that said
“ Only to be removed by the owner”





Can anyone see anything else wrong with this notice besides what I say here
1. The car was not parked in a disabled area or car space.
2. The disabled badge was not used because I had not intended to “Park” I just stopped.
3. Period observed 11.29 to 11.29 the “ Jobs worth CEO” must have been hiding behind another car waiting to pounce.
4. It is Margaret is the owner of the car.
5. She does not drive.
6. Because of her mental deficiency she wouldn’t know what a PCN is Now .


The reason I’m posting this is to ask the PCN experts, what the best way forward to deal with this, Do I take no notice and if and when a summons arrives I inform the Council that she cannot defend this because of her mental state, or,
Challenge it under the 6 points above…..or pay he £35 and get it over with ….not that we can afford it

Sparkie

[des8]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

Wait for @ Mystery1.
Best one on this site Sparkie

[Sparkie1723]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

Wait for @ Mystery1.
Best one on this site Sparkie

Cheers Des.

[CYNthesys]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

Is the new 10 minute grace period applicable?http://www.onenewspage.com/n/UK/754y...drivers-10.htm

[Sparkie1723]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

Is the new 10 minute grace period applicable?http://www.onenewspage.com/n/UK/754y...drivers-10.htm

Not sure CYN ....this appears to apply to overstaying a ticket you have gone overtime on..........The ticket I/we got was for not displaying a disabled badge properly in a disabled parking area. ...I wasn't in a disabled parking area....in fact I wasn't "parked in the true sense of the word I had just stopped for less than a minute, I had no intention to " Park" ....that's why I never opened the parking disc folder. that is always on the top of the dash board unopened until its required to be displayed.

Sparkie

[des8]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

I suspect your best route will be to request evidence of the contravention by way of photo's.
Don't tell them why you want it.
If they have photo's (and it is not a legal requirement) they will show you were not in a disable bay,

Further, their policy guidance can be found here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

These sections particularly apposite (the one in red especially so!):
41.0 DROPPING OFF - PICKING UP PASSENGERS:
41.1 Except on designated clearways and zigzag and no loading (schools andpedestrian crossing) restrictions any vehicle will be allowed a reasonableamount of time to drop-off or pick up passengers irrespective of any waitingrestriction in force. It is deemed that two minutes is sufficient allowance forthis unless it involves the elderly, disabled persons, young children or largeamounts of luggage etc. Consideration will be given to Hackney Carriages orPrivate Hire Vehicles who will need additional time to announce their arrivaland accept payment.
41.2 Representations / challenges should be accompanied by documentaryevidence giving the date, time, the pick-up and drop-off locations for the tripand a description of the passenger (Elderly, Disabled, Post-Operative etc.).

38.0 DISABLED DRIVERS/PASSENGERS:
38.1 Blue badges are issued to either a disabled driver or a disabled passenger.They can only be used when the vehicle is being used to transport thedisabled person. It is not permitted to use the badge for any other purposee.g., shopping for the disabled person when they, themselves, are not beingtransported in the vehicle.
38.2 Blue badges must be clearly and properly displayed whilst the vehicle isparked, the expiry date and serial number should be clearly visible. The blueclock should be used where a time limit or time restriction is in place.
38.3 Failure to do so will result in a PCN being issued for the contravention of therelative parking restriction. When considering the matter the Council will takeinto account previous contraventions by the same vehicle and/or badgeholder for failure to display a disabled badge. Where no previouscontravention has occurred the representation should be allowed, providingproof of the existence of a valid badge is supplied. In such circumstances theletter sent to the person making the representation should make it clear that this contravention will be taken into account when considering any futurecontravention and that this may lead to future representations beingrejected.

[Sparkie1723]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

Morning Des,
Thanks for the info.

Sparkie

[Sparkie1723]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

JUst noticed another thing on the PCN ...it does not state the time as being a.m or p.m.
I know what time it was but the note doesn't say so
It says civil enforcement but....
Aren't Council PCN's a criminal issue and would be dealt with in a Majestrates Court?....if they are then the facts must be 100% correct and with doubt??
Just me rambling as usual.
Sparkie

[Sparkie1723]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

I write on behalf of the owner of the vehicle Reg No XXXXXXXXX to who a PCN has been served on 07/04/2015 by CEO AW 323.
I challenge this Notice on behalf of the owner and will state the following true facts;


1. On the morning in question I drove the owner of the said vehicle from XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX to ASDA supermarket.


2. The owner of said vehicle suffers from Osteoporosis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Arthritis, the effects of a faulty valve in her heart, and is in the last stages of Dementia


3. The purpose of this journey was to drop the owner of said vehicle off to meet her daughter who was waiting in the covered walk way leading to ASDA supermarket, to give her mother a shopping trip and take her for a meal


4. There was no place that I could reasonable stop without causing obstruction to other motorists, including no available “Disabled Parking Space” close to ASDA, therefore I “pulled” into the nearest possible parking space(s) on the main Car Parking area to the arranged meeting point.


5. I had no intention of “Parking the vehicle”


6. I then proceeded to assist the owner out of the vehicle once I had done that I walked with the owner of the Vehicle to where her daughter was waiting, the distance was approximately 30 to 35 meters , after a very brief conversation with the vehicle owners daughter. I returned to the vehicle, which I may point out I had not even locked.


7. I then returned to XXXXXXXXXXX, and arrived back at 11.40, It was then I noticed the little yellow plastic wallet, which had the words only to be removed by owner of vehicle written on it.


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________


The Penalty Charge Notice.
I make these observations and comments
(a) If I had not noticed this yellow wallet and removed it contrary to the instructions on it, the owner would never have removed it.


(b) However I did so, and make the following challenges.
The code under which the PCN was issued;
(c) The vehicle was not parked in a disabled persons parking space, it was “ stopped” in a vacant car space for the purpose of “Drop Off”.
(d) The disabled badge was not displayed because of (a) above, there was no intent to “Park”.
(e) Time of contravention 11.29
(f) The observation time is less than a minute ….i.e. from 11.29.…….To 11.29.
(e) The time does not state if it was a.m. or p.m. I believe this is called a “misrepresentation by omission”
(g) The most important and most serious.


The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) has made a deliberate known false misleading statement on the said PCN, in that the person acting in that capacity states,
“Parked in a disabled parking space”.


This is totally incorrect and untrue and to prove that this statement is not false, a photo graph of where the vehicle was parked and time it was parked in this alleged disabled persons parking space must be produced.


I use the formal wording of an untrue statement, there is a more often used word to describe such a statement which consists of 3 letters.


Civil Enforcement Officers, persons acting in that position abuse their position as such as AW323 in making such false statements.

They are not considered as reasonable members of society, for reasons they have in my opinion delusions of grandeur.


Finally the owner of the vehicle, because of her mental incapacity can neither confirm or deny the PCN, as she is completely incapable of doing so, and;

Under the circumstances no penalty fine will be paid by the owner, and the owner cannot defend any Court enforcement application to enforce the PCN.


Should the Council decide to pursue enforcement they would need to comply with CPR 21 of the Civil Procedure Rules and appoint a litigation friend to represent her, who would need to give an undertaking to be responsible for costs in defending any such action, as she lacks the mental capacity to instruct legal representation.

[des8]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

If using a 24 hour clock.................
Penalties are issued by (often un)Civil Enforcement Officers
If you challenge the charge it will be dealt with by a tribunal.
If you just don't pay it will be registered at Traffic Enforcement Centre as if it was a County Court decision.

[des8]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

Sparkie,
Would not advise sending that letter as it stands. I'm busy at the moment but will look back in later if no one else offers advice in the meantime.
Des

[Sparkie1723]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

If using a 24 hour clock.................
Penalties are issued by (often un)Civil Enforcement Officers
If you challenge the charge it will be dealt with by a tribunal.
If you just don't pay it will be registered at Traffic Enforcement Centre as if it was a County Court decision.

Cheers Des.....It still won't be paid and it will be challenged as per the above letter.....Margaret can't challenge it she does not even understand what it is all about... .and she is the one who wns the car ....Just cannot drive it. .....even if she was supervised....I would committing a criminal offence if I allowed her to the insurance is in her name with me a named driver......Am removing her
from the insurance and putting it in my name only now

[michael]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

The Penalty Charge Notice.
I make these observations and comments
(a) If I had not noticed this yellow wallet and removed it contrary to the instructions on it, the owner would never have removed it.


(b) However I did so, and make the following challenges.
The code under which the PCN was issued;
(c) The vehicle was not parked in a disabled persons parking space, it was “ stopped” in a vacant car space for the purpose of “Drop Off”.
(d) The disabled badge was not displayed because of (a) above, there was no intent to “Park”.
(e) Time of contravention 11.29
(f) The observation time is less than a minute ….i.e. from 11.29.…….To 11.29. No obs time required for code 87
(e) The time does not state if it was a.m. or p.m. I believe this is called a “misrepresentation by omission” Pcn's operate on 24 hr clock
(g) The most important and most serious.

The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) has made a deliberate known false misleading statement on the said PCN, in that the person acting in that capacity states,
“Parked in a disabled parking space”.


This is totally incorrect and untrue and to prove that this statement is not false, a photo graph of where the vehicle was parked and time it was parked in this alleged disabled persons parking space must be produced.


I use the formal wording of an untrue statement, there is a more often used word to describe such a statement which consists of 3 letters.


Civil Enforcement Officers, persons acting in that position abuse their position as such as AW323 in making such false statements.

They are not considered as reasonable members of society, for reasons they have in my opinion delusions of grandeur.

There's no point in calling a CEO a liar, the pcn was issued because he had 'reason to believe', so merely counter it with your evidence.


Finally the owner of the vehicle, because of her mental incapacity can neither confirm or deny the PCN, as she is completely incapable of doing so, and;

Under the circumstances no penalty fine will be paid by the owner, and the owner cannot defend any Court enforcement application to enforce the PCN.


Should the Council decide to pursue enforcement they would need to comply with CPR 21 of the Civil Procedure Rules and appoint a litigation friend to represent her, who would need to give an undertaking to be responsible for costs in defending any such action, as she lacks the mental capacity to instruct legal representation.

CPR do not apply to pcn enforcement

First part of your challenge is fine. Most of the 2nd part is irrelevant.

I would suggest:

I challenge on the following grounds:
1. The contravention did not occur.
2. The vehicle was not parked in a disabled persons parking space as alleged, but had stopped in a vacant car space for the purpose of “Drop Off”.
3. The disabled badge was not displayed because there was no intent to park.
4. Assisted alighting exemption applies where a reasonable amount of time to drop-off passengers is allowed. In this instance the passenger suffers from Osteoporosis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Arthritis and is in the last stages of Dementia.
5. The total time taken for the assisted alighting was less than x minutes
6. Finally the owner of the vehicle, because of her mental incapacity can neither confirm or deny the PCN, as she is completely incapable of doing so

[CYNthesys]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN


Are you able to substantiate on this please -
CPR do not apply to pcn enforcement

[michael]

Re: Day in the Life of Sparkie PCN

Are you able to substantiate on this please -
CPR do not apply to pcn enforcement

Neither Pcn enforcement nor the appeals process involves a court