Camden PCN

[CYNthesys]

Friend is a courier and after delivering goods arrived back at his van to find a PCN code no 2. He didnt see any signs and there were no road markings whatsoever restricting loading or unloading. Photos the council are relying on do not identify the location where the contravention allegedly occurred, they show loading signs not in sight of his vehicle and there are no kerb chevrons. The council says that the vehicle was parked within reasonable distance of a time plate stating that this was a restricted parking zone and that loading or unloading was not permitted at any time, however council goes on to admit that there are no road makings at this location but claims that it remains the responsibility of the motorist to observe and adhere to the lines and signs in all locations at all times.

Can anyone advise please, I think the council is "trying it on" as I thought exemptions were in place for delivery/courier vehicles and that kerb chevrons are required where there are loading/unloading signs

[des8]

Re: Camden PCN

Yellow lines

• loading and unloading is permitted on single and double yellow lines for a maximum of 40 minutes if loading is observed. You must not cause an obstruction and ensure that there is no loading ban
• where there is a loading ban, in addition to parking restrictions, you will see yellow stripes (chevrons) on the kerb. Double stripes are not signed and indicate that loading and unloading is not permitted AT ANY TIME. Single stripes mean no loading and unloading during certain times and will have an accompanying time plate (see example below).

Taken from: http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/pol...dunloading.htm

I/ll try and find the bit from DRBM

[CYNthesys]

Re: Camden PCN

Thanks Des, the photos provided by the council show that there are no single or double yellow lines, no chevrons and no signs in the vicinity of the parked van

[des8]

Re: Camden PCN

Oops, it wasn;t the DMRB but the traffic signs manual :https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...chapter-05.pdf
Page 116 para 20.7

Or you could refer to the good old Highway Code: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...d-markings.pdf

[des8]

Re: Camden PCN

That council has been reading the Alice books.
How can they state with a straight face "it is the responsibility of the driver to observe and adhere to the lines" when they admit there are no lines.
The lines are there to draw the motorists attention to the existence of restrictions, the application of which is shown on the plates.

[CYNthesys]

Re: Camden PCN

Thanks Des, This is what the council wrote-

Thank you for your letter received on 12/11/2014.

I understand that you are contesting the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) because there were no road markings or warning signs indicating that parking was prohibited, but I have decided to enforce the Notice.

The vehicle was parked within reasonable distance of a time plate stating that this was a restricted parking zone and that loading or unloading was not permitted at any time. These restrictions exist to aid the flow of traffic in busy areas, and parking in these locations can cause obstruction, as well as seriously inconveniencing other road users.

Whilst there are no road markings in this location, it remains the responsibility of the motorist to observe and adhere to the lines and signs in all locations at all times. As I am satisfied they were sufficient to alert motorists to the restrictions in place I regret to inform you I am not prepared to withdraw the charge.

Moreover, I am satisfied the signage conforms to Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002."

[MissFM]

Re: Camden PCN

Thanks Des, This is what the council wrote-

Thank you for your letter received on 12/11/2014.

I understand that you are contesting the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) because there were no road markings or warning signs indicating that parking was prohibited, but I have decided to enforce the Notice.

The vehicle was parked within reasonable distance of a time plate stating that this was a restricted parking zone and that loading or unloading was not permitted at any time. These restrictions exist to aid the flow of traffic in busy areas, and parking in these locations can cause obstruction, as well as seriously inconveniencing other road users.

Whilst there are no road markings in this location, it remains the responsibility of the motorist to observe and adhere to the lines and signs in all locations at all times. As I am satisfied they were sufficient to alert motorists to the restrictions in place I regret to inform you I am not prepared to withdraw the charge.

Moreover, I am satisfied the signage conforms to Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002."

We're through the looking glass again, it seems :crazy:

[MissFM]

Re: Camden PCN

The vehicle was parked within reasonable distance of a time plate stating that this what? was a restricted parking zone and that loading or unloading was not permitted at any time.

Whilst there are no road markings in this location, it remains the responsibility of the motorist to observe and adhere to the lines and signs in all locations at all times.

Just how are you supposed to know where the restrictions begin and end without road markings?:noidea:

[CYNthesys]

Re: Camden PCN

In the photo showing the parked van there are no road markings or signs in sight, its impossible to even identify the street in question, even though Camden allege its Dyott Street

[MissFM]

Re: Camden PCN

Would it be worth writing to the CEO and your MP with the photos and *that* letter? It really is beyond parody.

[CYNthesys]

Re: Camden PCN

Will wait for notice to owner to arrive, just trying to get all arguments together in preparation

[michael]

Re: Camden PCN

Whilst there are no road markings in this location, it remains the responsibility of the motorist to observe and adhere to the lines and signs in all locations at all times.

Unfortunately the council can't pick and choose which bits of Traffic Signs Regulations they think are sufficient for a particular restriction. They have a duty to ensure that both signage and road markings are there to convey clearly to the motorist what restrictions are in force. They admit that that is not the case.

You need to wait for the NTO and make formal representations and then when they are rejected appeal to the adjudicator.

[michael]

Re: Camden PCN

On the other hand part of Dyott St is a Restricted Zone where no loading is allowed:
http://goo.gl/maps/bOiAK

[CYNthesys]

Re: Camden PCN

On the other hand part of Dyott St is a Restricted Zone where no loading is allowed:
http://goo.gl/maps/bOiAK

Shouldnt there be kerb chevrons where no loading is allowed, also are couriers exempt

[MissFM]

Re: Camden PCN

On the other hand part of Dyott St is a Restricted Zone where no loading is allowed:
http://goo.gl/maps/bOiAK

But even on that view the restriction appears to end where the lines end (before the body of the street) and the sign is ambiguous.