Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

[righty]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

I can see why OP seized on this post, regrettably it is nonsense.

However innocent the buyer, if the seller does not have title to the goods it cannot lawfully pass between the two.

Thousands of cars are seized every year where the seller did not have title either because they were stolen or had outstanding finance.
Don't HPI offer some sort of warranty if their title search is defective?

Sorry but it isn't nonsense There is case law which reflects my views. Even the cops told the OP they would return it. Also how did the son know where the car was. Suspect the OP has been royally stitched up by son

[SamSmith]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

Thanks again for the advice from everyone. I hate to say this but again I believe Righty is correct. To me it seems the car was abandoned without any intention of return (hence not paying any storage charges or even visiting the site)

I haven't mentioned this before as I wasn't sure how much info to put on here but the only reason the Son even knew the car wasn't where he abandoned it was that a friend of mine recognised an old registration number plate that used to be on the car on a newish car in a petrol station. He struck up a conversation with the female owner who turned out to be the daughter of the previous owner (sister of the current owner) - she mentioned that her brother must have sold the car as she hadn't seen it for a long time.

The next day the car was reported stolen.

I suspect he googled the car value, realised it has risen and reported as stolen.

[stevemLS]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

Fine, Sam & Righty, go for it.

[des8]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

" There is case law which reflects my views."
Please quote it then, as this is contrary to everything I have ever been taught.

" when can (if ever) the farmer rightfully remove the car from his land? - is it after 1yr, 10yrs etc?"
Basically never, unless he takes the correct steps.
The local council have powers to deal with "abandoned" vehicles, but they need to carry out certain procedures first.(Part III of The Removal and Disposal of vehicles Regulations 1986 as amended)

By leaving an object anywhere , one does not lose ownership. one's rights and RESPONSIBILITIES continue .
On abandonment it was said ( CDC2020 plc v Ferreira {2005} EWCA Civ 611) by Lloyd LJ in principles that " abandonment is not to be lightly inferred because owners of property do not normally wish to divest themselves of property unless to do so is to their advantage, even if they have no present use for the property in question"

[SamSmith]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

" There is case law which reflects my views."
Please quote it then, as this is contrary to everything I have ever been taught.

" when can (if ever) the farmer rightfully remove the car from his land? - is it after 1yr, 10yrs etc?"
Basically never, unless he takes the correct steps.
The local council have powers to deal with "abandoned" vehicles, but they need to carry out certain procedures first.(Part III of The Removal and Disposal of vehicles Regulations 1986 as amended)

By leaving an object anywhere , one does not lose ownership. one's rights and RESPONSIBILITIES continue .
On abandonment it was said ( CDC2020 plc v Ferreira {2005} EWCA Civ 611) by Lloyd LJ in principles that " abandonment is not to be lightly inferred because owners of property do not normally wish to divest themselves of property unless to do so is to their advantage, even if they have no present use for the property in question"

Many thanks for this, all interesting reading. It does make one wonder about how these auction 'barn-finds' are validated for sale.

[righty]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

" There is case law which reflects my views."
Please quote it then, as this is contrary to everything I have ever been taught.

" when can (if ever) the farmer rightfully remove the car from his land? - is it after 1yr, 10yrs etc?"
Basically never, unless he takes the correct steps.
The local council have powers to deal with "abandoned" vehicles, but they need to carry out certain procedures first.(Part III of The Removal and Disposal of vehicles Regulations 1986 as amended)

By leaving an object anywhere , one does not lose ownership. one's rights and RESPONSIBILITIES continue .
On abandonment it was said ( CDC2020 plc v Ferreira {2005} EWCA Civ 611) by Lloyd LJ in principles that " abandonment is not to be lightly inferred because owners of property do not normally wish to divest themselves of property unless to do so is to their advantage, even if they have no present use for the property in question"

How can it be 'abandoned' if the son now claims ownership OP did you get a receipt of any kind from the sons, now deceased, father?

[des8]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

Why should the OP be given a receipt by the son, who has recovered his "stolen" vehicle?
And even if he has a piece of paper confirming he has returned a stolen vehicle what use will it be to the OP?

The op should be trying to recover his losses from the person who "sold" him the vehicle, and from the son to the extent as the real owner he has benefited from the improvements to the vehicle

[righty]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

INNOCENT APPROPRIATION
Some protection is offered to the bona fide (in good faith) purchaser by s3(2) Theft Act which provides:

"Where property or a right or interest in property is or purports to be transferred for value to a person acting in good faith, no later assumption by him of rights which he believed himself to be acquiring shall, by reason of any defect in the transferor's title, amount to theft of the property."
Where therefore, A buys stolen property from D, unaware that it is stolen, and he gives value for it, he will not be guilty of theft if he later discovers the truth and decides to keep the property; neither will he incur any liability for handling stolen goods.

[righty]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

Why should the OP be given a receipt by the son, who has recovered his "stolen" vehicle?
And even if he has a piece of paper confirming he has returned a stolen vehicle what use will it be to the OP?

The op should be trying to recover his losses from the person who "sold" him the vehicle, and from the son to the extent as the real owner he has benefited from the improvements to the vehicle

I'm not referring to the son but to the now deceased father. Did he give the OP a receipt or anything else that might help

[des8]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

I'm not referring to the son but to the now deceased father. Did he give the OP a receipt or anything else that might help

As OP appears to have "bought" car from farmer and not the (now deceased) father, he should have a receipt from farmer, and it is farmer who should be pursued for return of purchase cash.

On death of father the car would be classed as part of his estate. It will then depend on the will (if any) or the laws of intestacy, or the inheritors private agreements that would enable the son to own the car.

INNOCENT APPROPRIATION
Some protection is offered to the bona fide (in good faith) purchaser by s3(2) Theft Act which provides:

"Where property or a right or interest in property is or purports to be transferred for value to a person acting in good faith, no later assumption by him of rights which he believed himself to be acquiring shall, by reason of any defect in the transferor's title, amount to theft of the property."
Where therefore, A buys stolen property from D, unaware that it is stolen, and he gives value for it, he will not be guilty of theft if he later discovers the truth and decides to keep the property; neither will he incur any liability for handling stolen goods.

That is why police are not taking any action, but it is not case law reflecting your earlier stated views that good title can be passed under these circumstances.

[stevemLS]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

He may not be guilty of theft, but that does not mean he becomes the lawful owner of the goods.

[righty]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

Read it again

[righty]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

As OP appears to have "bought" car from farmer and not the (now deceased) father, he should have a receipt from farmer, and it is farmer who should be pursued for return of purchase cash.

On death of father the car would be classed as part of his estate. It will then depend on the will (if any) or the laws of intestacy, or the inheritors private agreements that would enable the son to own the car.

INNOCENT APPROPRIATION
Some protection is offered to the bona fide (in good faith) purchaser by s3(2) Theft Act which provides:

"Where property or a right or interest in property is or purports to be transferred for value to a person acting in good faith, no later assumption by him of rights which he believed himself to be acquiring shall, by reason of any defect in the transferor's title, amount to theft of the property."
Where therefore, A buys stolen property from D, unaware that it is stolen, and he gives value for it, he will not be guilty of theft if he later discovers the truth and decides to keep the property; neither will he incur any liability for handling stolen goods.

That is why police are not taking any action, but it is not case law reflecting your earlier stated views that good title can be passed under these circumstances.

"if he later discovers the truth and decides to keep the property"

[stevemLS]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

Have read it, am trained in statutory interpretation thank you.

Anyhow, I can't be bothered arguing, have given my view, OP can pay as much or as little attention to it as s/he wants.

Am beginning to wonder whether it is worth attempting to help people on here.

[des8]

Re: Purchased 'stolen' car - advice needed regarding proof of title

Am beginning to wonder whether it is worth attempting to help people on here.

Mustn't give up on everybody just because of a few:tinysmile_aha_t:

AND STILL AWAITING CASE LAW