Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

So have you submitted form N244 and EX160 (fee remision) applying to the magistrates court to have the liability order set aside ?

I submitted EX160 at same time as application to the Magistrates' court (to state a case to the High Court). Does N244 relate to County Court applications?

The Magistrates' court doesn't appear to have the same powers as the County Court. Their powers are restricted, for example they don't have statutory powers to set aside liability orders or reopen Civil cases (only criminal it seems).

However, just to confuse things I believe the authority to set aside liability orders has now been established as a common law principle developed in case law..... This is one of them Liverpool City Council v Pleroma Distribution Limited [2002] EWHC 2467 Admin

[three rivers of corruption]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

N244 is "application notice" to get a liability order set aside . Where a liability order has been unfairly awarded this is the way to get it done. However on second thought you arnt attempting to get the liability order set asisde you are disputing the costs awarded. You can still use N244.

"Council tax - Grounds for appeal

Appeal against a Liability Order being granted

A Liability Order can only be challenged by an appeal to the High Court by way of:

• Case stated on a point of law (must be done within 21 days via the Magistrates Court)
• Judicial review (within 3 months)

Case Stated:

• The aggrieved person can question the magistrates decision on the grounds that it is wrong in law or is in excess of their powers
• The application must be made within 21 days of the liability order hearing
• If the magistrates believe the application is frivolous, they can refuse to state the case
• If the magistrates refuse to state a case, the High Court can make an order requiring the magistrates to state the case
• The High Court would then hear the case and make a decision based on the fact."

I suggest you submit N244 to have the liability order set aside.
If this is disregarded as frivolous then you have the option to resort to the high court.

"Both the Council and Magistrates' Court have been served the application for the Magistrates' Court to state a case for an appeal to the high court."

What court form did you use ? Presumably you have copies !

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

....What court form did you use ? Presumably you have copies !

The form I submitted is on Page 119 of this document. I've provided the link only because there looks to be some useful info in the booklet.

The completed form is here as an attachment in this post:

I'll look into the form N244 now..

Thanks

[three rivers of corruption]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

That form looks more designed for criminal cases.
The magistarates and liability orders operate at the lowest level of the court system, setasides can be granted as informally as they are granted . This high court business smells like the court people are trying to steer you into a brick wall to me.

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

Oulawlgo, ever thought of running for MP?

You're doing a brilliant job, thank you.

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

If someone can tell me how to attach a pdf, I'll post up an interesting document labelled:

"JUSTICES' CLERKS' SOCIETYProcedure in Liability Order Applications".

Its an interesting document that explained to some extent the 'comradeship' between the LA & Justice's Clerks I keep coming across...

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

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[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

I came across this last week, so who's in charge? the Magistrates Court or the LA's?

So what are your chances of getting a fair hearing in a Magistrates' Court?

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

That form looks more designed for criminal cases.
The magistarates and liability orders operate at the lowest level of the court system, setasides can be granted as informally as they are granted . This high court business smells like the court people are trying to steer you into a brick wall to me.

Even though its a civil matter, I think the crim laws still apply.

I think (hope!) you got more chance of getting a fair hearing in the high court than in the magistrates.

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

I came across this last week, so who's in charge? the Magistrates Court or the LA's?

So what are your chances of getting a fair hearing in a Magistrates' Court?

The last paragraph at item 5 speaks volumes...

5. Procedures prior to the hearing

The Court and its staff should not give the impression that the Council is in charge of the process.

The Chartered Institute of Public Finance & Accountancy, in its "Guide to the Council Tax" tells us this:

Human Rights Act 1998

Local authorities must be careful not to infringe an individual's human rights. Potential areas for problems are:

• notice of hearing;

• being careful not to appear to stop the taxpayer appearing before the court, if they want only to make a payment arrangement;

• not having available a translator for people whose first language is not English; and

• not separating the roles of court taking officer and the person who gives evidence of process.

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

It's enlightening how people at the top have a completely different view of reality to the rest of us....

Apparently on Question Time last night, Former Lord Chief Justice Lord Falconer said about the Justice system in reference to Chris Huhne's likely prison sentence that for the public to have confidence in the system, courts have to administer justice fairly.

In answer a questions from the audience he stated, of course Chris Huhne isn't a danger to society but the courts have to treat perverting the court seriously. There’s got to be a clear message sent and Chris Huhne is at the wrong end of that clear message.

Does this only apply for cases in the public eye then? They're obviously in a different class and treated differently to the "conveyor belt" type cases the rest of us get dragged through.

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

The response from the Council today was no surprise. I anticipated they'd consider themselves covered by the law and correctly obtained the liability order.

That however was not the point; it was the fact they could not substantiate their claims that the costs incurred were reasonable. It would be futile dealing with the council any more, unless of course it decided to instruct its bailiff contractor Rossendales – at which point it would not only be the council involved but the police as well.

8th February 2013

Dear Mr ......

Council Tax Liability Order

Thank you for your ‘e’ mail of 6th February 2012 [2013].

I am not prepared to apply to the Magistrates Court to quash the liability order obtained on 2nd November 2012. The liability order was correctly obtained for the outstanding balance due at that time.

No decision has been taken at the present time regarding further action to enforce the debt.


Yours sincerely

Local Taxation & Benefits Shared Service Manager

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

There is one case that may hit the news and media channel in the very near future, a tragic case where an award winning inventor was literally hounded to death by the LA who made him bankrupt AFTER he paid his council tax arrears, his council made him bankrupt for £1350 alleged 'costs', these rose to £70,000 when they evicted him from his home that he owned outright. The facts of this case are shocking and disturbing, if you haven't already seen it: http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/07...eter-williams/

[A54]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

Outlawglo, I learned that when dealing with these crooks you must remain civil and courteous at all times, while there's nothing wrong with talking the truth...

There are certain triggers that the real decision makers higher up the chain look for, e.g. the moment they see someone insulting the LA e.g. by calling them crooks, they immediately disregard the complaint even if you have infallible evidence. Its just not worth giving them any excuse, you've made valid points that need determining, don't give them anything else to focus on.

While researching I've seen this happen with a few cases in the high court and adjusted my approach accordingly.

The same applies when dealing with the LGO (who act as nothing but LA's damage limitation team).

I am not criticising your approach in any way which I feel is honest and direct - just sharing my experience in the hope it can be of help with this important test case.

I'm also involved in a test case, if everyone just keeps chipping away we might have a chance of stopping all LA's from deliberately victimising their most vulnerable citizens instead of helping them.

If you get a favourable decision in the high court regarding the LA's costs, imagine all the victims that will be able to reclaim any excess costs as a result, imagine 10 years worth of victims claiming back costs that were unlawfully charged.

Now imagine how a high court judge would feel knowing that if he rules in your favour, mayhem will shortly follow in magistrate and county courts all over the UK. There should be no hesitation in a judge making a just decision based on evidence and facts but the after effects of such a decision must bear some weight in the back of their mind.

Hope you take all this in the way its intended.

Best

[outlawlgo]

Re: Council Tax Liability Order Applications Court Costs – Test Case

A54,

I completely understand and agree with what you're saying, but it just shows the people in these positions haven't the first clue about what their role entails. If they can disregard a case because of something as trivial (and unrelated to the evidence) as an individual's contempt for the organisation causing the grievance, we might as well not bother.

It is clearly a sign of corruption if a judge is permitted to allow crimes outlined in the evidence to continue because he doesn't agree with the personal opinions of the person making the allegations. If the judge considers such attitude to be contemptuous, this should be treated as an unrelated issue, as to throw out a case on this basis would amount to the judicial system aiding and abetting the crime for which it has evidence in its possession.

An individual sickened by the lies and corruption of let's say his local authority for example, should not have this go against the facts of the case if he expresses this. The person bringing the case to the court's attention should be considered just the messenger presenting the evidence which should be weighed up without irrelevancies getting in the way. If crime has been alleged, the ultimate role of the judge is to decide if the evidence is sufficiently conclusive to satisfy him a crime has occurred.

That's just my opinion but I doubt those in authority would share the same views.