Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[des8]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

But we all know OL is a proper lawyer at heart..... he argues for the sake of arguing, and if he starts to lose he changes the premise!

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 - I did not make things personal, I simply reiterated what you had said already.

You're right, the law is not for me, I like to establish the facts in a case, and ensure I'm interpreting and applying the law (statute and case) correctly.

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The person who wrote that article DOES have a law degree and is actually working in the field of law, as an associate.

Obtaining a law degree is not hard, as many graduate in the discipline, universities are giving them away in real terms, as the money is in legal practice, so the law degrees are likely softened for commercial reasons. Ask a law graduate what is equity though and they'll probably offer a blank look. Law degrees for that matter are not like for like, some are simply more difficult than others. Lots of lawyers don't even do law degrees, so they do conversion courses and a diploma. Look at the US model for a law degree - a very different story as law is valued in the states. In the UK, a degree is a degree.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Fact #1: There was a common law apprenticeship, as evidenced by documents the OP will need to obtain from the training provider.

Fact #2: There was an apprenticeship contract, as evidenced by the contract document, which fails to comply with ASCL 2009.

Fact #3: The apprentice was dismissed without notice prior to the completion of his apprenticeship, as evidenced by the dismissal letter.

Fact #4: The reasons for dismissal did not constitute misconduct so severe in nature it rendered the apprentice unteachable.

A good example of recent case law on this is James LLoyd v Federal-Mogul Sintered Products Ltd.

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[MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] - Haha!

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION], [MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION], [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] and [MENTION=30456]wales01man[/MENTION]

I am so grateful for the time taken to read and supply your thoughts, each one makes me look at the situation a different way and your insights are invaluable so thank you.

I've spoken to my son who said he couldn't work there again as the culture appears to run through the company. He doesn't want it on his record that he was dismissed and I agree with him.

I also think that this does need highlighting with the company as the harassment/victimisation are beyond the pale and no young person should ever be put in that environment. The message that was stuck over his number plate indicated he was a paedophile which potentially could have put him in harms way. This is the only incidence where we have physical proof something happened. His manager despite knowing what happened failed to do anything about it. That alone makes me want to pursue this further. If nothing is done it will continue, they shouldn't be allowed to employ young people with the promise of an apprenticeship, throw them in at the deep end and drop them after 3 months because they mention the word bullying. That department's behaviour was wholly unacceptable and any reasonable person could see that.

My son now has to reevaluate what he wants to do, he is worried that his experience is what working life is.

It is a sorry state of affairs

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Why are you not practising law or in the legal profession OL you seem to know a lot but sorry to say you argue a lot with others on here

An honest answer is, law I have come to know as my friend but its words are my enemy, my dyslexia. I couldn't compete with the average law grad never mind the best, so here I find myself offering my legal insight and approach.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@matt3942, @Openlaw15, @des8 and @wales01man

I am so grateful for the time taken to read and supply your thoughts, each one makes me look at the situation a different way and your insights are invaluable so thank you.

I've spoken to my son who said he couldn't work there again as the culture appears to run through the company. He doesn't want it on his record that he was dismissed and I agree with him.

I also think that this does need highlighting with the company as the harassment/victimisation are beyond the pale and no young person should ever be put in that environment. The message that was stuck over his number plate indicated he was a paedophile which potentially could have put him in harms way. This is the only incidence where we have physical proof something happened. His manager despite knowing what happened failed to do anything about it. That alone makes me want to pursue this further. If nothing is done it will continue, they shouldn't be allowed to employ young people with the promise of an apprenticeship, throw them in at the deep end and drop them after 3 months because they mention the word bullying. That department's behaviour was wholly unacceptable and any reasonable person could see that.

My son now has to reevaluate what he wants to do, he is worried that his experience is what working life is.

It is a sorry state of affairs

Am so sorry to hear that Jojo. How imbecilic that the average employee's brain is so starved of 'comedic' stimulation that they'll resort to those pitiful depths. Ok, evidence - what do you have? This 'paedophile on a number plate' is potentially either a contributing factor for a peripheral claim for victimisation and or harassment, besides the main for dismissal of an Apprentice, your preferred remedy. Be careful here, as when there is more than one potential claim the waters get murkier and lots of employees get lost and the employer's lawyers pull them away from their original material claim, ie in your case the Apprentice one.

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Fact #1: There was a common law apprenticeship, as evidenced by documents the OP will need to obtain from the training provider.

Fact #2: There was an apprenticeship contract, as evidenced by the contract document, which fails to comply with ASCL 2009.

Fact #3: The apprentice was dismissed without notice prior to the completion of his apprenticeship, as evidenced by the dismissal letter.

Fact #4: The reasons for dismissal did not constitute misconduct so severe in nature it rendered the apprentice unteachable.

A good example of recent case law on this is James LLoyd v Federal-Mogul Sintered Products Ltd.

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@des8 - Haha!

Hmm 'think' ha ha..but don't say it out loud...in verbalised print.. it's very childish. What was I saying about comedic stimulation and the attention seeker's need for it?

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION] - Yes, clearly I'm the attention seeker in this thread!

[Amethyst]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Please try very hard not to get into personal arguments on people's threads, it helps no one. Thank you.

I have left them for now as there is some useful stuff intermingled, however if the OP would like posts removed from this thread just drop me a PM.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 - Yes, clearly I'm the attention seeker in this thread!

Am just saying don't talk down to me - don't mock me - my skills are not just in law....I know psychology too. I could analyse you all day - but let's move on. I like challenges...this is trivial and therefore boring.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

I was expressing my amusement at a comment made by another user, I was neither talking down to you, nor mocking you.

Thinking back on my own experience and graduate qualifications in psychology, I would certainly enjoy that; however, as you said, let's move on.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

In Flett v Matheson 2006 ICR 673, CA, F worked under a ‘Modern Apprenticeship agreement’, which operated as a tripartite arrangement between him, the ‘employer’ and a Government-sponsored training provider. When he was dismissed without notice, he brought a breach of contract claim before an employment tribunal. The issue was whether F was to be regarded as employed under a contract of employment, a contract of apprenticeship, or neither. This was important because, were he employed under a contract of apprenticeship, he could seek damages in excess of Ł 50,000 in respect of lost earnings and the potential diminution of his future prospects. If, on the other hand, he worked under a contract of employment, his claim would be limited to one week’s pay for being dismissed without proper notice. The Court of Appeal concluded that the tripartite arrangement had the essential ingredients of an apprenticeship; namely, it secured wages for the apprentice for the duration of an apprenticeship; training enabling him or her to acquire valuable skills; and status in the labour market following successful completion of the training. The fact that part of the training was provided by a third party did not deny the contract the classic qualities of apprenticeship.

This one is good.

Jojo, this case is the main one for recognising an Apprenticeship from the average employee.Loss of earning is usually a tort, would not normally come under 'contract law.' So, I think the judge will award for both contract and tort damages, ie tort kicks in where contract law terminates, and vice versa. Remoteness is also key, ie the damages must not be too remote (closely linked etc). In addition, contact and or tort cannot duplicate the award. So, if your son were to find a different job but was paid more than what he would have earned as an apprentice, it's likely his claim for loss of earnings would be diminished or no longer payable. It also depends on the Apprenticeship type in question, therefore. Tort law is so very strict actually, it's mainly based on case law as is contract, than pure statute (primary legislation).

[wales01man]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Wow fisticuffs pistols at dawn for you 2?
serious lets get back to providing the OP with advice that they can use to resolve this from my view the Employer wanted to get rid of the OPs son for some reason the son needs to find away forward from this and get their career back on track how is not easy all the time this hangs over their head together with the stress maybe a consultation with an employment expert can come up with the answers.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Pistols at dawn? I make it a principle never to shoot anything before lunch.

My advice, very early on in the thread, was to make contact with an employment law specialist at Citizens Advice, or a local Law Centre. In my opinion, based on current case law, the OP has the basis for a claim for breach of contract, and unfair dismissal, and - now we've established the OP's son does not wish to return to work for this employer - should be seeking damages payable for loss of wages to the end of the contract, and loss of the training opportunity.

My understanding is that the OP will make contact with the employer and training provider to find out more information, and to request copies of relevant documents.

[Diana M]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

I am so grateful for the time taken to read and supply your thoughts, each one makes me look at the situation a different way and your insights are invaluable so thank you.

. . . . His manager despite knowing what happened failed to do anything about it. That alone makes me want to pursue this further.

. . . . My son now has to reevaluate what he wants to do, he is worried that his experience is what working life is.

It is a sorry state of affairs

May I add my thoughts Jojo? I'm posting as a mother not as a lawyer.

Your son has clearly been upset by the experience which is why he's worried that 'working life' will always be like this. While I can't guarantee it won't, I also can't guarantee life in the workplace will always be plain sailing. There are bullies and bad managers out there in their droves. That's what employment law is supposed to prevent or remedy when things go wrong.

Maybe it's not been all bad if it's taught him how to handle such a situation. He will learn through the bad experience. Obviously it would have been better if it never had happened.

I can also sense that you're upset on his behalf. What mother wouldn't be. I used to fight my daughter's battles until she told me to butt out (golly, I hope she doesn't read my posts ). The hardest part for me was being able to let go so that she had to find her feet in the real world.

My dear old mum used to say to me "you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince". The same applies to finding the right job.

I wish your son loads of luck in whatever way he decides to handle the situation.

Di

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Pistols at dawn? I make it a principle never to shoot anything before lunch.

My advice, very early on in the thread, was to make contact with an employment law specialist at Citizens Advice, or a local Law Centre. In my opinion, based on current case law, the OP has the basis for a claim for breach of contract, and unfair dismissal, and - now we've established the OP's son does not wish to return to work for this employer - should be seeking damages payable for loss of wages to the end of the contract, and loss of the training opportunity.

My understanding is that the OP will make contact with the employer and training provider to find out more information, and to request copies of relevant documents.

Matt, you're supposed to be a psychology expert, as you allude. Please give it a rest. I could have responded further, but simply chose not to. If you want to discuss things further, either email me or drop it right here. This thread needs to stay on track. You do not need to respond that you agree with the last sentence, i'll just 'know it.'