Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

[Whoppery6k]

Hi all, I have had a dig via the forum and can't find anything similar so I thought I would ask,
I have been accused of committing a offence in work in sept 2013. Now it only came to light in May 2014 that a lot of people in the company where doing the same thing...and the company looked in to it.
I was taken in to a investigation in July 2014 and told I would hear back in 2 weeks.
during those 2 weeks serval people in my company where dismissed for the offence. I continued in my job hearing nothing. In May 2015 I was asked to attend a meeting where the company confirmed due to a admin error I was never seen and they now needed to close the case I was taken back in to disciplinary where a outcome could not be reached.
I now need to attend a 2nd hearing next month that will take this whole process just 8 weeks short of 2 years since the date of the accused offence and only a few days short of 1 year since my original investigation.
it looks like I'm going to be dismissed but my argument is that the time scale here is unacceptable, the computers we used have all been replaced since then twice,my manger has changed 4 times and the CCTV footage that I know would have cleared my name has been deleted. Even the staff I worked with back then have all moved on to new jobs.
i also have no possible way to recall the events of 2 years ago for me what was a normal working day.
in my mind I have no way to prove my innocence because of the time frame.

i have accepted I'm being dismissed and looking for a new job but where would I stand if I was to appeal this and take it to a tribunal ?

thank you for any advice

[matt3942]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

Hi [MENTION=68319]Whoppery6k[/MENTION]

Welcome to the forum.

The ACAS code of practice states that each stage of the process should be completed without unreasonable delay; however, generally there's no limit to how long an investigation/disciplinary can last - it depends on the nature of the allegation.

Having said that, two years is a very long time.

Just to confirm:

1. The alleged misconduct took place in September 2013, but didn't come to light until May 2014?
2. The investigation hearing was in June 2014, but you weren't notified of the outcome until May 2015?
3. The outcome of the investigation was that the case should be closed?
4. You attended a disciplinary hearing anyway, which did not reach an outcome?
5. You have been invited to attend a second disciplinary hearing in July 2015?

I look forward to hearing from you.

- Matt

[teaboy2]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

I think what the OP meant was when saying they told him the case needed to be close, was they needed to bring the procedure to a conclusion. i.e. carry on where left off and complete the disciplinary process.

Though id say it is an unfair process give the time scale involved!

Some questions on top of what Matt has asked:

During those two years since the intial allegation have you been working or on suspension?

Have you had any more disciplinary's or have they mentioned any performance issue they had regarding yourself during the last 2 years?

[Whoppery6k]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

Hi @Whoppery6k

Welcome to the forum.

The ACAS code of practice states that each stage of the process should be completed without unreasonable delay; however, generally there's no limit to how long an investigation/disciplinary can last - it depends on the nature of the allegation.

Having said that, two years is a very long time.

Just to confirm:

1. The alleged misconduct took place in September 2013, but didn't come to light until May 2014?
2. The investigation hearing was in June 2014, but you weren't notified of the outcome until May 2015?
3. The outcome of the investigation was that the case should be closed?
4. You attended a disciplinary hearing anyway, which did not reach an outcome?
5. You have been invited to attend a second disciplinary hearing in July 2015?

I look forward to hearing from you.

- Matt

hi Matt thanks for your response to answer your questions

1, yes that's correct
2 yes the investigation was July (not June) and I was told I would hear back in 2 weeks
3 I was notified of the out come at the time but I believe it was I should go to a disciplinary panel
4 correct
5 correct

- - - Updated - - -

I think what the OP meant was when saying they told him the case needed to be close, was they needed to bring the procedure to a conclusion. i.e. carry on where left off and complete the disciplinary process.

Though id say it is an unfair process give the time scale involved!

Some questions on top of what Matt has asked:

During those two years since the intial allegation have you been working or on suspension?

Have you had any more disciplinary's or have they mentioned any performance issue they had regarding yourself during the last 2 years?

Hi hi teaboy, thank you for your reply

to answer your questions,

I have been working the whole time, except for holidays I have been in work everyday

no in the last years my performance has been excellent with no problems in regards to hitting targets or any investigations of any kind

[teaboy2]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

In that case i can not see how any disciplinary action with the outcome resulting in any detriment to yourself could be fair, be it verbal warning, written warning, final warning or dismissal. As any verbal or written warnings can only be on your record for 12 months, its already been nearly 2 years, so they would have fallen of your record and you'd have a clean slate for the last 11 months if they had completed the disciplinary back then, as per they should have done. And any dismissal would be unfair as they have for the last two years benefited from your work and input in to the company financially and otherwise, whilst officially you have still been under investigation and facing disciplinary for whole of the last 2 years almost!

I think you need to give ACAS a call and bring them in on this, as they will contact the employer and mediate between you both. Plus ACAS's involvement will likely make the employer rethink its position here and drop the whole disciplinary against you!

Alternatively, put a grievance in as the company is clearly in breach of its own procedures regarding disciplinary, and point out what i said above along with anything @matt3942 has to add. They are also in breach of contractual duty of care, and implied term of mutual trust - Duty of care being they have a duty to protect your health and welfare as employee and they have failed to do so as this has been a constant worry for you for the last 2 years therefore putting you under stress. And they breached their mutual trust as they are not acting fairly and are acting completely unreasonably by taking so long to complete the investigation and disciplinary process which they are in breach of in regards to their own disciplinary procedural policies! Matts better at writing up letters than me as well, so if you need a template/draft ask matt lol

[matt3942]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

Have to agree with [MENTION=19071]teaboy2[/MENTION] here - give ACAS a call and bring them up-to-speed. Your employer's process seems shambolic.

If you do need any help with drafting letters by all means let me know.

In the meantime, please let us know how you get on with ACAS.

- Matt

[Whoppery6k]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

Thank you so much for your advice guys, I will give acas a call Monday morning and report back

[Whoppery6k]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

So I spoke to acas this morning and they where actually very little use.
the lady just told me to bring to light the length of time the process had taken and that was about it

[teaboy2]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

Ok thats unfortunately though is luck of the draw when you ring ACAS, most time you get people there that are on the ball, clearly this lady wasn't

I think you need to issue a formal grievance outlining how they are treating you unfairly and the time its taken etc, not to mention the fact they have benefited from your employment over the same timeframe.

Am sure [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION] will help draft a letter up for you.

[matt3942]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

[MENTION=68319]Whoppery6k[/MENTION] [MENTION=19071]teaboy2[/MENTION] - I have just seen this and will come back to you ASAP.

- Matt

[matt3942]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

[MENTION=68319]Whoppery6k[/MENTION]

I have a few questions before I draft a letter:

When was your first disciplinary meeting?
Were you provided with any evidence / did your employer have any evidence?
Were you told why a decision could not be reached?
What were you told would happen next?

Are there any concerns about the disciplinary process itself, i.e. were you notified in writing of the disciplinary meeting, told you could be accompanied, told you can appeal the outcome?

Is there any weight in us knowing what the allegation is? You said it's something most of the employees did - is it something (some) supervisors/managers were aware of? Have other employees had the same allegation made against them but not been dismissed (or disciplined at all)? If you think it would help us to know but don't want to post it on here you are welcome to message teaboy2 and me privately.

- Matt

[Whoppery6k]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

@Whoppery6k

I have a few questions before I draft a letter:

When was your first disciplinary meeting?
Were you provided with any evidence / did your employer have any evidence?
Were you told why a decision could not be reached?
What were you told would happen next?

Are there any concerns about the disciplinary process itself, i.e. were you notified in writing of the disciplinary meeting, told you could be accompanied, told you can appeal the outcome?

Is there any weight in us knowing what the allegation is? You said it's something most of the employees did - is it something (some) supervisors/managers were aware of? Have other employees had the same allegation made against them but not been dismissed (or disciplined at all)? If you think it would help us to know but don't want to post it on here you are welcome to message teaboy2 and me privately.

- Matt

hi again, thanks for taking the time out to help with this. Would it be worth calling acas again?
ok to answer the questions

so I was accused of the act that took place in November, 2013

my Investigation took place on sept the 3rd 2014, I was told it would be concluded as quick as possible and this should take around 2 weeks,

The evidence provided it a report I will pm you details

on the 30th April at 8:00am I received a phone call asking me to drive 30 minutes away to a lotion with out being given a reason.
it was here I was told it was recommended I see a disciplinary panel but due to a admin error I was never seen,

on the 6th of may I received a letter asking me to attend a hearing on the 18th,

i attended and during that meeting it also came to light that I had done something else incorrectly.
it was here they told me a decision could not be reached... And they would be in contact

i am now due to be seen on the 1st of July

since the meeting on the 18th I have now a company document that states the accusation that was brought to light on that day, that I have been accused of doing incorrectly. Is actually ok to do

[matt3942]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

Hi [MENTION=68319]Whoppery6k[/MENTION] - my apologies for the delay.

I have attached a draft of your grievance letter. Please let me know if any details are incorrect. Alternatively you are free to amend the letter as you see fit.

I have included a sentence (in red) about accepting a warning and re-training, which you may wish to amend or remove completely.

Please let us know what happens next.

- Matt

[stevemLS]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

Whilst your letter Matt is of your usual high standards I think it is really difficult to write such a letter in the absence of information about what the supposed wrongdoing is (although you have made an admirable attempt to avoid the issue).

My worry would be that several others have been dismissed over the issue and the passage of time is not a mitigation.

[teaboy2]

Re: Disaplinary taken almost 2 years

Whilst i would agree [MENTION=48758]stevemLS[/MENTION], if this was a usual everyday disciplinary case. The fact is what he did wrong is irrelevant now, as what's relevant is the fairness of the disciplinary and the time its taken and the fact they have benefited from his work during that same period of time, makes it unfair. So any dismissal would also be unfair regardless of the act of misconduct! (Unless it was criminal in nature)