Gross Misconduct- fighting

[kupidonstars]

I just wrote a very long explanation which was summarily deleted... hmmm...

So, in a nut shell.

My brother has been dismissed from work today on the grounds of gross misconduct. The circumstances of this incident (according to him) are as follows:

- It happened two weeks ago and it was another man who has been provoking my brother for some weeks.

- The other man 'came at' my brother, who stepped and punched him (yep, I know! )

- There were witnesses to the incident and my brother insists that their version will corroborate his.

- His hearing was last Monday, to which he took his union rep.

- His union rep said my brother answered the questions fine but noted (aloud and during the meeting) that the questions were closed. He does not believe this gave my brother the opportunity to put his side across.

- They told him they would inform him by last Friday and he finally found out today that he has been dismissed.

I am very hard on my brother, I think that I have been all of our lives. This is very out of character for him and I can only explain it by the fact that we lost our (young) dad suddenly and unexpectedly six months ago.

I know this does not justify violence and I think I am on here to get this out of my system as opposed to expecting that there can be any good come from his appeal.

Guess with losing dad I feel at a loss too!

[Amethyst]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

We had a server blip around 2.30 ish for 20 mins or so so your post may have vanished into the ether, it wasn't deleted by anyone xxx

Has any action being taken by your brother's employers against the other party ?

[kupidonstars]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

Hi Amethyst,
Thanks for the quick reply. I asked my brother this and he said they didn't know an that his Union rep was going to find out.

Does it make much difference?

Thanks!

[jon1965]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

The problem is that most companies look at violence in the work place very seriously ( unless they are the bbc and your name is Jeremy)
it could make a lot of difference if no action was taken against the other person.
Pis your brother appealing?

[stevemLS]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

I agree with Jon and fear your brother may be in for a tough time.

How long has he worked there?

[kupidonstars]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

Thanks all.

I've asked him to let me know about the other guy.

I think you're all right and I am so frustrated with him. He's been there for around 4-5 years, I think. They were training him in a different area to further his career and he does something crazy

Thanks for the advice.

[stevemLS]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

Well, at least he benefits from the right to access an ET - though that may not particularly help him in all the circumstances.

Relying on whether or not they did anything with the other guy isn't the firmest of grounds either, each will have a different work record and mitigating circumstances - so the decisions need not necessarily be consistent.

You mentioned that your brother had been provoked by the other chap for a few weeks before this incident occurred. What form did this provocation taken and is their any "official" record of it - had your brother, for example, mentioned it to his line manager?

You also mentioned witnessess - did the hearing take their evidence into account? I got a bit confused about the tenses - you mentioned that their acccount "will" support that of your brothers.

It is also not clear to me whether an investigatory meeting has taken place followed by the disciplinary itself?

[kupidonstars]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

Apologies for the confusing tenses... I'd typed quite a long and detailed post before that and Amethyst says there were server issues and I lost it.

I spoke to my brother briefly late last night.

There was a hearing and it took place a week after the incident and so I assume they spoke to witnesses. My brother did not say whether or not he had seen/ heard any of the witness accounts in an official way.

As far as I am aware, my brother went to only one meeting and that was the one from which they made their decision.

I agree that you're right in regards to not relying on the other person's circumstance... in fact, I've told him that his appeal is likely to not succeed and (though I have still insisted he appeal and his union rep agrees) I have told him he should be actively looking for another job and not feeling sorry for himself.

That said, and as hard on him as I am, I am really quite shocked that he actually hit this guy. He does not deny this but says he acted in self defence. I don't know what to think there or if it even makes a difference. He is a very placid, mild mannered man. Too laid back, usually, is what I level at him.

Honestly, it's my mum I feel sorry for!

Anyway... babbling. I don't know if he reported these incidents of provocation (I believe verbal) but, knowing him, the answer is likely to be no. I have just text him to ask.

I do appreciate this and I do understand that any appeal is likely to futile.

Can I ask; what are the requirements from his company in regards to how they handle the appeal?

Thanks again.

[stevemLS]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

He is lucky to have a sister looking out for him.

I don't think there is any longer any legal requirements for how appeals are dealt with. It should be covered in the employers' disciplinary policy though? Has he a copy of that. There is very often a very short timescale to get them in,.

It does sound as though the original hearing wasn't dealt with properly - he should certainly have seen the evidence on which they intended to rely beforehand (to enable him to properly defend himself). However, the remedy for that isn't much cop.

[Tools]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

Normally when the decision is made he will have 5 days to appeal the decision.

Unless your brother can produce witnesses to confirm he was acting in self defence I'm sorry to say he stands little chance of success appealing or winning an ET. Also if it can be established that the other person was provoking or attacked first then the company should also take disciplinary action against them too. Again this relies heavily on witnesses, does the company have CCTV at all?

[kupidonstars]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

Just wanted to log in and thank everyone for their replies and help with this.

I saw my brother late last week and found the following:

- The other man has also been fired.
- My brother did not know what statements the witnesses gave and still does not or, in fact, if they were even interviewed (although one would assume they were).
- There is no CCTV (a worrying situation given the nature of the work they do there)
- His union rep submitted his written appeal within the time frame. He awaits a response.

In the meantime I have told my brother he should be actively looking for another job as his situation will make it difficult to find something. Whether or not he heeds my advice is entirely down to him.

I do think their are some procedural anomalies in the way his company have dealt with this but I doubt anything will amount to much of a positive outcome for my brother.

He did a very foolish thing and both men have lost their jobs after a moment of utter madness.

Thank you again, for your help.

This is a very cool forum and I'm glad I found it.

[Tools]

Re: Gross Misconduct- fighting

Thanks for updating everyone.

No consolation to your brother I know, but at least it now seems that both parties involved have been treated equally so far.

As you say, a moments madness can often have far wider reaching implications, You also seem to advised him wisely by encouraging him to prepare for another job, just in case. I do hope your brother is successful in his appeal and that they can see the incident was provoked or alternatively gets another job elsewhere. Again keep us updated & thanks for the kind comments about the forum, as you've seen we don't judge (too much ) and if ever you or someone you know needs help with anything just shout.