Respondent sent me a 'draft trial bundle index' without any of my requested documents

[Hellothanks]

Hi, could anyone please help me with this dilema? Firstly, today I was expecting a bundle (by which I was expecting a folder/file) with all the documents in it including those that I had requested under ET Order 2: 'Bundle of documents', but Respondent have ignored my request completely! Their solicitor only sent me an email with a 'draft trial bundle index' that lists only the documents that I had disclosed and those that they had disclosed as part of ET Order 1: 'disclosure of documents'. So, they left out completely all the documents that I had requested as part of ET Order 1.

They were instructed to provide me with a bundle by today in which, as I understand from the Case Management Summary, they should have also included the documents that I had requested as part of ET Order 2. I am completed shocked and confused by this non-compliance. It's like a joke that they have just sent me the list of disclosure list again!!!


Can they get away for doing that? What are the options for me now?

Please could someone help!

Thanks!

[teaboy2]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

You need to contact tribunal and inform them they have not complied with ET order 2 and have failed to provide you with the documents you had specifically requested. Though first contact the defendants solicitors by email advising them, as it may have been made in error. Though that's what they will claim, we both known its more likely to be deliberate ploy.

Can you PM me a copy of the case management summary first though, so i can see exactly what is what here?

[krypton]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

Their solicitor only sent me an email with a 'draft trial bundle index' that lists only the documents that I had disclosed and those that they had disclosed as part of ET Order 1: 'disclosure of documents'. So, they left out completely all the documents that I had requested as part of ET Order 1.

They were instructed to provide me with a bundle by today in which, as I understand from the Case Management Summary, they should have also included the documents that I had requested as part of ET Order 2. I am completed shocked and confused by this non-compliance. It's like a joke that they have just sent me the list of disclosure list again!!!


Can they get away for doing that? What are the options for me now?

Please could someone help!

Thanks!

If they have already disclosed documents as part of ET1 then there would be no need for them to provide you anymore ? It would generally only be an index at this stage.

You are making a claim and they are defending it. Their defence is based on whatever they wish to submit and defend and not on what you request.

You have to also understand they are out to defeat you and defend the claim in the tribunal. They will do so vigorously. You cannot ask for more than what they want to provide? If they feel they have provided enough then they don't have to provide anymore. Does that make sense?

The ET process encourages a resolution between the two parties at every stage. In fact very few cases reach as far as the tribunal. Have ACAS been involved? Have you had any without prejudice conversations with your former employer? What is it that you are hoping to achieve at the tribunal ?

I think you need to seriously weigh up what it is you are trying to achieve and whether you are going the right way about it.

You may be better off having a professional representative acting for you.

[stevemLS]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

Not sure about the ET but in other jurisdictions it is very common for a bundle to be served by way of index only.

Generally the documents referred to have already been disclosed and the parties make requests of each other to fill any gaps.

Procedure may be different in the ET.

[Hellothanks]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

Hello teaboy2, good to hear from you, and happy New Year to you, mine's certainly not a pleasant one! Thank you for time and thoughts. It certainly not an error, what's maddening is solicitor is writing so innocently as though that Order doesn't exist and I hadn't requested anything! Even more maddening is i had fortunately received an appointment adviser for Monday 12th Jan just to go through these documents as I was expecting to have received them by now, i will miss the opportunity now and be placed back on waiting list. And even more maddening is that I am expected to send my witness statement by 30th Jan for which i needed the completed bundle with my requested documents init as well so I could have referred to them accordingly, now without them my statement wont be as evidence based as I wanted to.

sorry it might be a stupid question but what's PM? and how do I PM you? Also, do you want to see the whole CM summary or just the Order under question? If so, I can just type the whole paragraph up, it's not long.

Thanks once again to taking time to read and give thoughts

[Kati]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

sorry it might be a stupid question but what's PM? and how do I PM you?

PM = Private Message ... if you click on the person's name you should see the option to message them in a drop-down box (see pic) :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[krypton]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

And even more maddening is that I am expected to send my witness statement by 30th Jan for which i needed the completed bundle with my requested documents init as well so I could have referred to them accordingly, now without them my statement wont be as evidence based as I wanted to.

Lets get this correct. Are you saying you are expecting them to provide you with documents, as this is the evidence you need and are relying upon in order for you to present a sensible claim ?

I would kindly suggest that you seriously need to instruct a professional employment solicitor immediately.

[teaboy2]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

Lets get this correct. Are you saying you are expecting them to provide you with documents, as this is the evidence you need and are relying upon in order for you to present a sensible claim ?

I would kindly suggest that you seriously need to instruct a professional employment solicitor immediately.

If you read the first post it sounds as though they were instructed to disclose them at ET hearing. This is why i have asked for case management summary to try ascertain whats what.

BUt from how i read it the employment judge made the order that the documents be disclosed to HelloThanks - Therefore its the equivalent to a court order and they must disclose any documents referred to in it! Though i will confirm things once HelloThanks has PM'd me the order and case summary etc.

[teaboy2]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

Hello teaboy2, good to hear from you, and happy New Year to you, mine's certainly not a pleasant one! Thank you for time and thoughts. It certainly not an error, what's maddening is solicitor is writing so innocently as though that Order doesn't exist and I hadn't requested anything! Even more maddening is i had fortunately received an appointment adviser for Monday 12th Jan just to go through these documents as I was expecting to have received them by now, i will miss the opportunity now and be placed back on waiting list. And even more maddening is that I am expected to send my witness statement by 30th Jan for which i needed the completed bundle with my requested documents init as well so I could have referred to them accordingly, now without them my statement wont be as evidence based as I wanted to.

sorry it might be a stupid question but what's PM? and how do I PM you? Also, do you want to see the whole CM summary or just the Order under question? If so, I can just type the whole paragraph up, it's not long.

Thanks once again to taking time to read and give thoughts

Can you send me the whole summary and the order too please? Better to have a full understanding of where things are at right now then only half a picture.

[krypton]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

If you read the first post it sounds as though they were instructed to disclose them at ET hearing. This is why i have asked for case management summary to try ascertain whats what.

BUt from how i read it the employment judge made the order that the documents be disclosed to HelloThanks - Therefore its the equivalent to a court order and they must disclose any documents referred to in it! Though i will confirm things once HelloThanks has PM'd me the order and case summary etc.

It reads though that the Tribunal has ordered to exchange bundles. This as others have said is the normal course of events. It would be highly unlikely that the tribunal would order otherwise or told the defendant to conform to the claimants requests at this stage.

It would wholly explain and make perfect sense the other solicitor has provided an index to him.

Notwithstanding this, the claimant doesn't appear to have confidence in his case with an absence of evidence which he appears to have been relying upon on gaining from the other side during the course of proceedings? This is not only bizarre but indicates he may be quite misinformed and ill judged about where he currently finds himself.

I would say he needs to seek professional employment specialist help immediately. A professional needs to evaluate the merits of the case he has brought in front of the tribunal immediately.

[teaboy2]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

It reads though that the Tribunal has ordered to exchange bundles. This as others have said is the normal course of events. It would be highly unlikely that the tribunal would order otherwise or told the defendant to conform to the claimants requests at this stage.

It would wholly explain and make perfect sense the other solicitor has provided an index to him.

Notwithstanding this, the claimant doesn't appear to have confidence in his case with an absence of evidence which he appears to have been relying upon on gaining from the other side during the course of proceedings? This is not only bizarre but indicates he may be quite misinformed and ill judged about where he currently finds himself.

I would say he needs to seek professional employment specialist help immediately. A professional needs to evaluate the merits of the case he has brought in front of the tribunal immediately.

Its perfectly common for tribunal judges to order disclosure of documents, this is a tribunal not a court of law also most evidence referred to in employment tribunals by defendant or claimant nearly always refers to the claimant in some form. So such documents would likely be disclosed in reply to a Subject Access Request anyway. So it makes sense for a judge to order their disclosure so parties can prepare their case for hearing.

From what i read in the first post, the order to disclose documents was made at ET2 stage. So sounds like they have not disclosed copies of the documents in the list that they had provided, which hellothanks subsequently requested copies of said documents!

In regards to list of documents - Well the list should include everything which is covered by your duty of disclosure. The duty of disclosure applies to all documents in your possession or control which are relevant to the issues to be determined by the Employment Tribunal (subject to some exceptions, which are listed below). Crucially, this applies regardless of whether the documents help or hinder your case - So yes they most not only provide a list off all documents regardless of if the hinder or help their own case, but also provide documents requested by the other party regardless of whether it hinders or helps your case.

Only documents that do not need to be disclosed and therefore are exceptions are: Without Prejudice Documents and/or Privileged documents

[stevemLS]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

The tribunal is a form of court.

As to the duty of disclosure, that's fine, but not everything on the disclosure list will need to go into the bundle.

[teaboy2]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

The tribunal is a form of court.

As to the duty of disclosure, that's fine, but not everything on the disclosure list will need to go into the bundle.

Well yes its an employment court, but its not a court of law in same sense as county court or criminal court etc - Hence why its a tribunal, which is merely in this case a body to settle employment dispute inline with peoples statutory rights and employment legislation and regulations only.

And yes not everything on the list goes into the bundle, only documents that both parties intend to refer too or use. But it sounds to me like the HelloThanks has requested disclosure of some documents on the list and said copies were not disclosed, hence the ET2 order for disclosure (If HelloThanks has told us correctly).

[krypton]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

The tribunal is a form of court.

As to the duty of disclosure, that's fine, but not everything on the disclosure list will need to go into the bundle.

Yes that''s my understanding as well. Not everything on the list needs to go into the bundle. It's even less of a requirement if they have already provided the documents they intend to rely upon and simply indexed it.

Of course all of this could be academic if they feel they have strong enough defence anyway or the claimants case is weak and has no evidence.

[teaboy2]

Re: Respondent sent me a 'draft tria bundle index' without any of my requested docume

Yes that''s my understanding as well. Not everything on the list needs to go into the bundle. It's even less of a requirement if they have already provided the documents they intend to rely upon and simply indexed it.

Of course all of this could be academic if they feel they have strong enough defence anyway or the claimants case is weak and has no evidence.

Its not a matter as to just listing documents they only intend to rely upon, as the duty of disclosure applies to all documents in your possession or control which are relevant to the issues to be determined by the Employment Tribunal. And its irrelevant as to if any of those documents will help or hinder your claim/defence as they most still be disclosed.

But yes, until HelloThanks PM's me the case summary and copy of the order so we will know exactly what is what here, then its is academic and no point in furthering the discussion about disclosure.