Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Thanks for that Teaboy. The usage was from 27th October to 8th November and the meeting was on 4th November, so yes the evidence they provided does show a 50% reduction. Do you think this is something I could appeal about? This was one of two significant remarks from the final meeting where I was fired, one was that I had "completely disregarded" the instruction (as stated it had been reduced by 50%), also that I had shown "no sign that anything would change" despite having been very contrite (you can read in the statements I quoted above that I said I was ashamed and I even admitted to being arrogant, hardly sounds like I didn't intend to change).

As I said before I think someone above and beyond the actual process wanted me out, and so the guy doing the disciplinary made the facts fit the need to sack me.

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Thanks for that Teaboy. The usage was from 27th October to 8th November and the meeting was on 4th November, so yes the evidence they provided does show a 50% reduction. Do you think this is something I could appeal about? This was one of two significant remarks from the final meeting where I was fired, one was that I had "completely disregarded" the instruction (as stated it had been reduced by 50%), also that I had shown "no sign that anything would change" despite having been very contrite (you can read in the statements I quoted above that I said I was ashamed and I even admitted to being arrogant, hardly sounds like I didn't intend to change).

As I said before I think someone above and beyond the actual process wanted me out, and so the guy doing the disciplinary made the facts fit the need to sack me.

Yes you can use that has supporting evidence in your letter of appeal, by pointing out the interviewers statement that you showed complete disregard to your managers INFORMAL warning on your internet use, is wholly contradicted by the evidence of your internet provided to you during the disciplinary process, which clearly shows a reduction in your usage by 50% a significant improvement, which also contradicts the interviewers assertion that their was "no sign that anything would change", when the evidence of internet usage showing an reduction of usage by 50% is a clear sign of improvement!

You should coupled the above with what i said prior about IAD etc.

Also does the evidence show your work based internet use as well, or just your own personal use. If both, then point that out to them too and explain the work based usage.

Yes it maybe that someone above wanted you out in order to make an example of you, but the problem is proofing it!

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Another possible point is that my colleagues in the office use the internet all the time for personal use. One colleague was moaning to me that another does nothing but sits on the internet all day, booking her holidays (making any kind of business transaction online is also against the policy). So I have no proof that I've been specifically targeted, but if I'm going to be sacked for gross misconduct without so much as a verbal warning (we agreed that the informal chat my manager had with me didn't count), surely others should be getting the same treatment.

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Another possible point is that my colleagues in the office use the internet all the time for personal use. One colleague was moaning to me that another does nothing but sits on the internet all day, booking her holidays (making any kind of business transaction online is also against the policy). So I have no proof that I've been specifically targeted, but if I'm going to be sacked for gross misconduct without so much as a verbal warning (we agreed that the informal chat my manager had with me didn't count), surely others should be getting the same treatment.

You should mentioned about your other colleagues internet usage too. And maybe put in a formal grievance that you have been singled out unfairly and dismissed as a result, 1 or more of your colleagues are also constantly using the internet for personal use, to the point another of your colleagues (name both colleagues) even complained to you about the first colleague always using the internet for personal use!

Basically if you put that in your letter of appeal, and also make a formal grievance letter detailing your grievance of being signled out and used as an example, despite other colleagues also constantly using the internet for personal use. You then have a written record of it. ALso try get a supporting statement from the colleague who complained to you about the other colleagues internet use. As that can be used as supporting evidence to validate what you say in your appeal letter and grievance letter about the other colleagues internet use and you being singled out whilst no action has been taken against the other person.

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

I could name the two people concerned, but I doubt the one would want to make a written statement about the other.

During the time between being charged and dismissed, I saw another colleague using a personal site outside of his lunch hour. In fact, I've seen two other people, both of whom have managerial status, use the internet for personal use during work hours in my time (I know this because I heard videos playing, so actually disrupting the office). That's plus hearing comments from warehouse staff that lots of people in the office do it.

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

I could name the two people concerned, but I doubt the one would want to make a written statement about the other.

During the time between being charged and dismissed, I saw another colleague using a personal site outside of his lunch hour. In fact, I've seen two other people, both of whom have managerial status, use the internet for personal use during work hours in my time (I know this because I heard videos playing, so actually disrupting the office). That's plus hearing comments from warehouse staff that lots of people in the office do it.

Put it all in the appeal letter and grievance letter and name names regardless!

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Okay here's a first attempt at drafting an appeal letter:

Dear XXXXX

I would like to appeal against the decision made to dismiss me on the following grounds:

1. That the company handbook is not clear that excessive personal use of the internet should always be treated as gross misconduct, just that it may be depending on the circumstances (Email and Internet Use and Security Policy 4.1).

Also Disciplinary and dismissal Procedure 4.2 states "We will consider the circumstances of your case when deciding whether a disciplinary penalty is appropriate and what form it should take. Factors which might be relevant include, but are not limited to, the extent to which standards have been breached, precedent, your general record, position, length of service and special circumstances that might make it appropriate to adjust the severity of the penalty". I see no evidence that factors such as my general record or length of service were considered.

In the investigatory meeting it was asserted by XXXXX that my actions were gross misconduct but no explanation of why according to the policy was given.

2. It was stated by XXXXX that I had "completely disregarded" XXXXX's request and that "you have given me no reason to think anything would change". However the records produced clearly show that my internet usage reduced by about 50% after the date of my meeting with XXXXX. Furthermore, XXXXXXX who accompanied me to the disciplinary meeting testified on my behalf that I was beginning to understand the severity of the situation and that "I think he will change". I also showed great contrition throughout both the meetings and was frank about my faults and the ways I needed to change. None of this seems to concur with XXXXX's view that "there was no sign anything would change". Everything that could possibly have gone in my favour in this hearing seems to have been disregarded.

3. The actual nature of my offence in terms of misuse of the internet is not unusual within the office. I once heard XXXXXX complain that XXXXXX hardly did anything but spent all day on the internet. I also observed XXXXX using the internet for personal use during the time I was waiting for the disciplinary hearing. I have also heard numerous comments from warehouse staff about office staff in general overusing the internet for personal use. I have personally observed XXXXXXX using it for personal use outside of lunch hour by playing videos which actually disrupted the office. In this context, for me to be the sole person facing disciplinary action does not seem to be dealing with the matter "fairly and consistently" as recommended by ACAS, never mind for that disciplinary action to go straight to dismissal without even observing the first stage of the disciplinary procedure (written warning).

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Okay here's a first attempt at drafting an appeal letter:

Dear XXXXX

I would like to appeal against the decision made to dismiss me on the following grounds:

1. That the company handbook is not clear that excessive personal use of the internet should always be treated as gross misconduct, just that it may be depending on the circumstances (Email and Internet Use and Security Policy 4.1).

Also Disciplinary and dismissal Procedure 4.2 states "We will consider the circumstances of your case when deciding whether a disciplinary penalty is appropriate and what form it should take. Factors which might be relevant include, but are not limited to, the extent to which standards have been breached, precedent, your general record, position, length of service and special circumstances that might make it appropriate to adjust the severity of the penalty". I see no evidence that factors such as my general record or length of service were considered.

In the investigatory meeting it was asserted by XXXXX that my actions were gross misconduct but no explanation of why according to the policy was given.

2. It was stated by XXXXX that I had "completely disregarded" XXXXX's request and that "you have given me no reason to think anything would change". However the records produced clearly show that my internet usage reduced by about 50% after the date of my meeting with XXXXX. Furthermore, XXXXXXX who accompanied me to the disciplinary meeting testified on my behalf that I was beginning to understand the severity of the situation and that "I think he will change". I also showed great contrition throughout both the meetings and was frank about my faults and the ways I needed to change. None of this seems to concur with XXXXX's view that "there was no sign anything would change". Everything that could possibly have gone in my favour in this hearing seems to have been disregarded.

3. The actual nature of my offence in terms of misuse of the internet is not unusual within the office. I once heard XXXXXX complain that XXXXXX hardly did anything but spent all day on the internet. I also observed XXXXX using the internet for personal use during the time I was waiting for the disciplinary hearing. I have also heard numerous comments from warehouse staff about office staff in general overusing the internet for personal use. I have personally observed XXXXXXX using it for personal use outside of lunch hour by playing videos which actually disrupted the office. In this context, for me to be the sole person facing disciplinary action does not seem to be dealing with the matter "fairly and consistently" as recommended by ACAS, never mind for that disciplinary action to go straight to dismissal without even observing the first stage of the disciplinary procedure (written warning).

What about what i mentioned earlier regarding IAD?

What you added so far looks, fine, but i think you should add the IAD issue

Replace part in red with - Despite myself having no previous verbal or written warnings on my file, or been subject to any previous disciplinary procedures against me.

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Okay, how would I phrase that do you think? And again, given the fact I cut out my internet use completely after being charged with gross misconduct, how can I argue that I'm "addicted"?

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Okay, how would I phrase that do you think? And again, given the fact I cut out my internet use completely after being charged with gross misconduct, how can I argue that I'm "addicted"?

Simply mention that your internet usage was due to Internet addictive disorder born out of what is know as "Adatptive behavior" regarding mental health issues, and was connected to your past stress related breakdown, where you basically turned to internet use as it helped to keep your stress levels in check. Basically whilst you were using internet your not subject to stressful situations.

As for how you were able to reduce your usage by 50%, well that simply down to the fact you were made aware it was a problem where as prior to that you weren't aware it was such a problem, as the previous manager never questioned your internet use. But once it was raised to you by the new manager, you actively took action to try reduce your usage, which is evidence by the 50% reduction in your usage!

[leclerc]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Teaboy2, the edit you made to the letter stated that the first stage was a written warning. For GM you can be dismissed without written warning.

Jumpshot, did they make reference to any specific sites you were on or was it simply internet useage?

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Teaboy2, the edit you made to the letter stated that the first stage was a written warning. For GM you can be dismissed without written warning.

Jumpshot, did they make reference to any specific sites you were on or was it simply internet useage?

That wasn't an edit. The bit highlighted in red was what JumpShop originally had written.

I had highligted it like that as there's no longer a strike-though button amongst the posting editing tools for some reasons. And advised him at end of my post to "Replace part in red with - Despite myself having no previous verbal or written warnings on my file, or been subject to any previous disciplinary procedures against me."

I agree you can be dismissed for GM without any warning. Though in this case, as am sure you probably agree, the dismissal outright was a little heavy handed given the circumstances.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

I agree you can be dismissed for GM without any warning. Though in this case, as am sure you probably agree, the dismissal outright was a little heavy handed given the circumstances.

I can vouch for that one!

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

As I said, I understand you can be liable for dismissal for gross misconduct without any other procedure being followed. Just questioning whether it's necessarily gross misconduct according to the company handbook, and in relation to the behaviour of other employees.

The guy doing my disciplinary did make reference to some of the sites I had accessed being "risky" and said that he could have gone there but didn't find it necessary as the excessive use of the internet combined with "serious insubordination" i.e. not taking notice of the informal conversation I had with my manager, was enough to dismiss me on.

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

I've been thinking about a bunch of stuff this company is guilty of, including pushing staff members including myself to work when sick, overlooking untrained staff members operating machinery, allowing female staff members to walk out in the warehouse without protective footwear, having a weekend shift with no staff members that are first aid trained, having members of staff working 12 days straight and then writing them abusive emails when they make fairly minor errors, conducting disciplinaries in full hearing of the office. I heard a senior member of staff once refer to black/Asian people as "monkeys" in full hearing of the office. I also heard another manager telling a working mother that he thought mothers should stay at home with their kids. I could probably come up with a lot more if I thought hard enough. I don't know how much of any of this stuff could work in my favour, but this company is hardly innocent when it comes to "gross misconduct".

(I was the shift supervisor and brought up the issue of first aid training with my manager in advance of my first shift but nothing was ever done about it)

In fact I'm probably missing out the best bit: I spoke to a guy in the warehouse who had previously had two hearings for gross misconduct and not been fired. There's such a culture there of people being threatened with these things and not fired that people in the warehouse were assuring me I wouldn't be fired. To be honest though, the guy in question speaks the right way i.e. with a working class accent. I'm posh. Although it might seem a bit extreme to bring "class discrimination" into it, I doubt it would be without basis. I didn't entirely fit in, act right or speak right according to that company's norms, and I'm sure that played some part in the decision.