Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

[DickyRobbo44]

Ok sorry if this is long winded I will try to keep it brief. I've been in my position of Project Engineer for 2 years. My project in that time has been a nightmare but thats plainly down to outside sources effecting it.

I have literally just solved the issue which has been tormenting everyone and yesterday received a letter summoning me to discuss various aspects. A HR advisor was present and I was told I could bring a representative etc.

Now I have been unhappy in this job for at least a year, after hearing this discipline procedure I immediately felt like quitting but thought better of it.

I had the meeting today where my manager and director discussed the points. I wasn't given any evidence on the points they made, and the issues were very minute compared to other engineers errors. I feel very singled out, my former manager is very much best mates with the engineers and me having a young child and commuting left me ostracised from the close knit group.

I don't feel the dismissal I received was justified what so ever, no only that, I put my case across to only be handed a letter already printed out stating settlement terms. Surely this goes against the procedure to already have a decision without obtaining the facts?

I do not want to return, I have been placed on garden leave but can I negotiate the terms? I have a young son and partner to support so dont want to entirely jeopardize the current offer which they obviously told me was generous. I have been offered;

£930 tax free (this is the statutory amount)
Pay in lieu of notice period of 1 months pay
Payment for outstanding holidays
An agreed reference
Outplacement support
£250 towards legal fee's

Does this seem fair? I figure I could last 3 months before running into financial difficulty. I want to push for an additional months salary as my job is quite specialist and are not that easy to get local.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

£930 tax free (this is the statutory amount)

What does this statutory amount refer to?

Pay in lieu of notice period of 1 months pay

Payment for outstanding holidays
An agreed reference
Outplacement support

Are you being made redundant or dismissed for gross misconduct? Outplacement support is usually offered to people being made redundant, not dismissed for misconduct. :noidea:

£250 towards legal fee's

Legal fees to do what? Sue them for unfair dismissal? The idea of a settlement is that you would 'drop all charges' so to speak, i.e. agree not to take further action against them.

Does this seem fair? I figure I could last 3 months before running into financial difficulty. I want to push for an additional months salary as my job is quite specialist and are not that easy to get local.

It all depends. If they are making you redundant, then for two years of service you'd only be entitled to a week's salary per year which is capped at around £460/week, that's probably what the statutory amount refers to come to think of it. In that case, there isn't much more than the above you could ask for, however, it is important to remember that it is the position, not the person that becomes redundant. If they get someone else in to do your job then they wouldn't be meeting the redundancy criteria. Also the process you describe above sounds more like a disciplinary process leading to dismissal for gross misconduct rather than redundancy. :confused2: What exactly were you told about your termination?

[DickyRobbo44]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

Thanks for the reply. This is exactly my thinking. I had a letter out of the blue requesting I attend a disciplinary meeting and that I could take a colleague/ rep etc if I wanted. The points raised were those of a small nature, mainly being not meeting deadlines, poor project management performance. I put the main reasons for poor performance due to a lack of sufficient training even when requested. After all I'm a designer not a project manager. In the meeting I explained my defence for the issues raised and in the end they handed me a pre printed letter stating their decision to offer me a settlement to terminate my contract.

Gross misconduct is no where near the issue as the disciplinary reasons were minor to say the least. I expected maybe a performance warning, caution etc but these were the first times these issues have ever been raised to me. I no I have a case for unfair dismissal but the fact is I was job hunting because I hated the place anyway. I just need enough money to bide me over until I can find another job.

The legal fees are for when they draw up the settlement document it has to be legally checked by a solicitor for me.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

These are the reasons for which you could be dismissed. Did they quote any of them?
https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/reasons...n-be-dismissed

2. Reasons you can be dismissed

There are some situations when your employer can dismiss you fairly.
Not being able to do your job properly

You may not be able to do your job properly if, for example, you:

• haven’t been able to keep up with important changes to your job - eg a new computer system
• can’t get along with your colleagues

Before taking any action, your employer should:

• follow disciplinary procedures - eg warn you that your work isn’t satisfactory
• give you a chance to improve - eg by training you

Illness

You can be dismissed if you have a persistent or long-term illness that makes it impossible for you to do your job.
Before taking any action, your employer should:

• look for ways to support you - eg considering whether the job itself is making you sick and needs changing
• give you reasonable time to recover from your illness

If you have a disability (which may include long-term illness), your employer has a legal duty to support disability in the workplace.
Dismissal because of a disability may be unlawful discrimination.
Redundancy

Redundancy is a form of dismissal and is fair in most cases.
If the reason you are selected for redundancy is unfair then you will have been unfairly dismissed.
Summary dismissal

You can be dismissed for ‘gross misconduct’ without your employer going through the normal disciplinary procedures. This can happen if, for example, you’re violent towards a colleague, customer or property.
Your employer should always investigate the circumstances before making a dismissal, even in possible gross misconduct cases.
A ‘statutory restriction’

You can be dismissed if continuing to employ you would break the law - eg if you’re a driver in a lorry firm and you lose your driving licence.
It’s impossible to carry on employing you

If it’s impossible to carry on employing you, it’s likely to be fair. For example, if a factory burns down and it’s no longer possible to employ anyone.
A ‘substantial reason’

You may be dismissed fairly if, for example:

• you unreasonably refuse to accept a company reorganisation that changes your employment terms
• you’re sent to prison

[DickyRobbo44]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

• follow disciplinary procedures - eg warn you that your work isn’t satisfactory
• give you a chance to improve - eg by training you

I didn't have either of these, not even a quiet word.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

• follow disciplinary procedures - eg warn you that your work isn’t satisfactory
• give you a chance to improve - eg by training you

I didn't have either of these, not even a quiet word.

Obviously the above wouldn't apply to either redundancy or gross misconduct, however, by the sounds of it, it doesn't look like they've built a case for GM, nor are they summarily dismissing you, you wouldn't get any notice or garden leave if that was the case (been there, done that ).

It sounds more like redundancy without saying so, in which case I'd be careful because they seem to keen to reach some kind of settlement and something has just occurred to me: a settlement is always accompanied by an agreement whereby both parties agree to do and not to do certain things, for example, you may have to agree not to publish any 'disparaging remarks' about the company (that was one of the terms of the agreement I had ages ago) as well as relinquish the right to make any claims against the company. If they made you redundant, you probably wouldn't have to agree to as many terms as with a settlement offer, especially when you're only being offered statutory redundancy pay. More generous redundancy packages may come with further strings attached. If you were made redundant, they are not supposed to have you replaced. It may well be they want you to sign an agreement so that, when you find out they've hired someone else to do your job, you can't have any claim against them. I'm beginning to smell a fat rat!

[DickyRobbo44]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

I no without doubt that the position will be filled, we were complaining we were short staffed before my dismissal. What would be you next move? HR are ringing me tomorrow and I was thinking of leading the conversation with something like this;

After careful consideration of the proposed settlement to bring my contract to a premature end I deem the terms offered are not satisfactory in the respect of the impact this will have on my personal life and future career. The terms offered are what COMPANY NAME are contractually obliged to offer me.
Firstly and fore mostly I believe the process followed by COMPANY NAME have not followed the procedures set out in the Employment Protection Act. I do not believe there was any attempt made by COMPANY NAME to establish the facts and here my defence as by the end of the meeting I was handed a pre written letter stating the decision that was already made.
Dismissal without notice is generally reserved for very serious offences involving criminality or gross dereliction of duty.
In order for me to remove my right to appeal the decision and avoid following the route of a tribunal I will require the original proposed terms;
1. £**** lump sum which forms my statutory redundancy pay
2. Pay in lieu of notice in respect of 1 months statutory £**** which is subject to deductions for tax and national insurance.
3. Payment in lieu of accrued but untaken annual leave of 11 days £**** which is subject to deductions for tax and national insurance.
4. An agreed reference
5. contribution of £250 to my legal fee’s incurred in connection with us entering a settlement agreement
With the addition of;
1. An additional month’s salary which is subject to deductions for tax and national insurance.
2. Serving the remainder of my contract on garden leave

I don't want my job back but I'm not prepared to walk away quietly after being dismissed without any justification to warrant it.

[righty]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

Legal fees?
it appears to me they will want you to sign a compromise agreement for which they have to give you the opportunity to seek legal advice, advice for which they must pay
Note that if you do sign such an agreement you'll be bound to keep it confidential and if you don't they can sue you for the return of the payment + damages.

As for their offer I suggest you make a counter offer & see what results

[DickyRobbo44]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

I'm going to make a counter offer for the proposed terms with the addition of another 2 months salary on top. I will accept if they come back with an additional one months on top. Am I aiming too low? Its not everyday i'll be in this situation.

[righty]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

I think before making a counter offer I would ask (in writing) that they confirm (again in writing) their reasons for dispensing with my services, am I being made redundant etc & if so why?

[DickyRobbo44]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

I'm not being dismissed or made redundant as such. They would like to mutually agree a settlement to end my contract (used to be called compromise agreement). If I refuse, I will go through a performance improvement policy and seriously doubt they have a sufficient case for dismissal. The fact is though I hated the place anyway so this is a good excuse for a fresh start.

[righty]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

In that case make your alternative offer

[DickyRobbo44]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

Should I do it verbally over the phone or via email?

[alesmel]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

Should I do it verbally over the phone or via email?

Really silly comment here but how about using the £250 for the legal advice and then decide after the legal advice? It may well be that they will advice you to ask for much more than you are now considering and you will have the back up from the advice.....I am probably missing something though!

[DickyRobbo44]

Re: Settlement agreement after unfair and out of the blue dismissal!

Ok spoke to HR today. I proposed my counter offer and asked for 3 months additional salary. I knew this was too much but I was starting high. They came back on the phone 10 mins later offering an additional one months. Whilst I feel I probably could get them to meet in the middle, I think I'm happy with that so will agree a deal in principle. Good result!