Dismissal after staff party

[bluebottle]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

No doubt the employer will characterise it as theft = gross misconduct = summary dismissal.

Saying it is theft is one thing. Proving it is another. Any employer who alleges theft and cannot prove it is theft is going to be crucified, in the legal sense.

[bluebottle]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

In my honest opinion, JB has hit the nail on the head in very much every respect.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

lol, I think it may be the other way around at times xx

Absolutely spot on Boss Lady...:rant:

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

In my honest opinion, JB has hit the nail on the head in very much every respect.

Thank you Bluebottle.....

[vanman]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

well if it was theft they are not very good thieves as they had been working there for some time and did right under the CCTV
cams.hoto:
not the actions of someone that didn't think it was ok to do so

[AlfieJack]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Sorry for the late reply, thank you all so much for your replies.
The duty manager has been there 4+ years and the other two 2-3 years, all of which was trouble free. We have no contracts, therefore no t&c's and no disciplinary regulations. We are not part of a chain and are a very small group of employees with no HR or anything similar.
They have managed to gain 6 references all stating things resulting to it being custom and practice, meeting is tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks again.

[AlfieJack]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Also they are all very aware of the CCTV and it's positioning.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Sorry for the late reply, thank you all so much for your replies.
The duty manager has been there 4+ years and the other two 2-3 years, all of which was trouble free. We have no contracts, therefore no t&c's and no disciplinary regulations. We are not part of a chain and are a very small group of employees with no HR or anything similar.
They have managed to gain 6 references all stating things resulting to it being custom and practice, meeting is tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks again.

Hi Alfiejack,
You have to stand firm on this one, and it is not going to be a smooth ride.
Download the guide from ACAS and read it, and give a copy to the employer.

Tell the employer that there was never any intention to steal from them.
The practice of taking a bottle home, has been established over a number of years.
The fact that the bottles were labelled for 'Staff Use', was then assumed to be a gift from the Company, to do with as you pleased.
Nothing has ever been said by about not being able to take them home, and the Company really should have issued instructions on this.
The whole case is based on a misunderstanding by staff with regards to the bottles, and the Company's lack of instructions to cover the matter.
If there was any question of theft, why would we do it in front of CCTV, which we were all aware of.
You have to stick to the 'Custom & Practice' route.

The following is from the .Gov.UK website,

1. Overview

You should have written disciplinary rules and procedures to deal with employee performance and conduct and you must tell your staff about them.
Your rules must say what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour in the workplace and what action you will take if the rules are broken.
The rules should follow the Acas code of practice on disciplinary and grievance procedures.
Download ‘Acas code of practice on disciplinary and grievance procedures’ (PDF, 1MB)

Not following the code isn’t illegal. However, if someone wins an employment tribunal against you and you didn’t follow the code, then their award could be up to 25% more.

Acas guide to discipline and grievances

The Acas guide to discipline and grievances at work gives more information for employers about taking disciplinary action.
Download ‘Acas guide to discipline and grievances at work’ (PDF, 1MB)

Acas Helpline

The Acas Helpline has further advice on disciplinary issues.
Acas Helpline
Telephone: 0300 123 11 00
Textphone: 18001 0300 123 1100
Monday to Friday, 8am to 8pm
Saturday, 9am to 1pm (telephone only)
Find out about call charges

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Sorry for the late reply, thank you all so much for your replies.
The duty manager has been there 4+ years and the other two 2-3 years, all of which was trouble free. We have no contracts, therefore no t&c's and no disciplinary regulations. We are not part of a chain and are a very small group of employees with no HR or anything similar.
They have managed to gain 6 references all stating things resulting to it being custom and practice, meeting is tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks again.

You do actually have a contract of employment.
It is a verbal one, and the terms and conditions are implied.

[Amethyst]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Just to add, you have implied terms of contract and rights of disciplinaryprocedures etc regardless of whether you have a written contract. You should actually be given a formal written contract within 3 months of starting work.

Is tax and Ni paid by the employer?

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Just to add, you have implied terms of contract and rights of disciplinaryprocedures etc regardless of whether you have a written contract. You should actually be given a formal written contract within 3 months of starting work.

Is tax and Ni paid by the employer?

Boss Lady puts it much better than I do Alfie.......
Good luck to you all.

[AlfieJack]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Thank you again. I was aware of it being a verbal contract but no of implied t&c's. Yes we pay NI and tax, well most of us haha (the 3 guys up for dismissal defiantly do)

[AlfieJack]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Also would they have to give the employer a copy of the statements, or infact a copy of anything they have taken into the meeting with them if prompted?

[jon1965]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Considering the length of service and the lack of written contract they really have very little wriggle room and any dismissal or enforced resignation could cost them dearly. Although my view of it being wrong to take the bottles home without implicit consent remains unchanged the law is there to protect the staff so use it.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after staff party

Considering the length of service and the lack of written contract they really have very little wriggle room and any dismissal or enforced resignation could cost them dearly. Although my view of it being wrong to take the bottles home without implicit consent remains unchanged the law is there to protect the staff so use it.

Hi Jon,
'Take the bottles home without implicit consent'. is not the issue here.
The issue is that nothing was said to the contrary, so over a period of time taking the bottle home, with ( apparently) the consent of the acting manager does become 'CUSTOM AND PRACTICE'.
I think the problem is that people are reading into the definition of theft and forgetting the real issue.
Did the staff, as an act of theft , intentionally steal the bottles.?
Or did they take the bottles home on the understanding, that this was always done by some members of staff, without disapproval or instructions to the contrary from Management?
If you believe the latter, then the staff were not, and could not be guilty of theft.
Because what they did, they honestly believed they were entitled to do.
I rest my case M'Lady xx
I just love Judge John Deed.......
Man after my own heart.