Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes :)

[wales01man]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

THis government goes from cock up to cock up like a shuttle train back wards after going forward so many things they come up with are not thought out a good idea compulsory work but a bad idea no pay the rate for the job should be paid any benefits deducted for time worked, instead of the mess they always come up with make the effort to create real longterm jobs to suit the ski;;s that people have then we wont get graduates stocking shelf IF a job suitable for their skills,
Im sure there are many graduates doing these so called menial jobs thats choice when jobs are scarce some will do anthing others will sit on their behinds i believe if you can do the job offered you should do it if you cant do it you cant.Lets have a government that does its job

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

$quanderlot, shame on you....I had it on good authority you were a nice person :rofl:

FP as you say community service is completely different in that the maximum that can be given at any one time is 300 hours and the work done generally benefits the community.

...and it's used as an alternative to a custodial sentence for people convicted of a criminal offence, while the only 'crime' JSA claimants are 'guilty' of, is being unemployed. There are work-shy people out there, yes, but in the current economic climate, there just aren't enough jobs for everyone, regardless of whether they want to work or not.

If people are going to be forced to do unpaid work for any reason, then it should be working for community or charitable purposes. There are many things unemployed people could do according to their skillset, from cleaning up public areas to staffing the CABs and other volunteer services. If private businesses are to be provided with this type of labour, why not send youngsters over to the local (family-run) garage, where they can help and learn?

There is absolutely no excuse for providing large, profit making corporations with free labour! :rant: :rant: :rant: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

[jon1965]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

I know which I would rather do, community service or a custodial sentence.
My OH thinks that all people on JSA should do so many hours a week community style work, be it sweeping the streets, picking litter, gardening for the vulnerable etc

[bluebottle]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Don't celebrate too soon! And to be clear before I get lumped in with the government, I am opposed to the Work Programme in its present form - although not to the principle of a fairer scheme (which I don't think this government would ever introduce). But the judgement does not say what most people think it does. The judgement supports the right for the government to have such a sceheme and to implement it. Their difference of opinion (and it is still only that until a decision is made by the Supreme Court - and depending on that decision, possibly by the European Court) is about the way in which it has currently been implemented. The current regulations relating to eligibility for JSA do not permit its withdrawal except where someone fails to meet prescribed conditions which are clearly set down. These do not include refusal to participate in work related training / schemes. Therefore, the government erred when they instructed DWP staff to say that it was compulsory for the receipt of JSA (that's the very short gist of the ruling).

However, regardless of possible further legal action, the government has already said what they will do - they will change the law and regulations to make it compulsory. And short of a miracle in the Coalition splitting, they will achieve this. Probably quite quickly, since they have an incentive. And you can be certain that (a) there won't be any loopholes next time and (b) they will probably make it even more draconian whilst doing it.

Putting my political hat on, Eloise, I think what you have said in the latter part of your post is what could lead to the coalition government saying "Au revoir". The electorate will not tolerate bullying or slave labour, especially if a large commercial entity, like Tesco, is involved.

[jon1965]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Bluebottle I hope you are right but alas there are so many people that believe all people on JSA are work shy spongers who need a good kick in the pants.
Viva the Daily Torygraph and Daily fascist (sorry PlanB)

[Kafka]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

I've only just seen any details of the judgement, as opposed to the media coverage and the politicos' predictable misrepresentation on the Internet. In fact - as Elouise has said - it was no great ruling and dealt only with narrow issues, despite the hype that portrays it otherwise. Reading the extract below, the headlines would be more accurate saying something like:
Court of Appeal praises Government's back-to-work programme, but challenges financial systems.

But that wouldn't be such good copy would it?

**************************************
49. I readily appreciate the need for flexibility in devising arrangements which will achieve the statutory purpose of improving prospects of obtaining employment. The needs of jobseekers will vary infinitely as will the requirements of providers prepared to participate in arrangements with them. I am impressed with the care shown in attempting to devise arrangements and with the resources devoted to attempts to achieve the statutory purpose. There is an important public interest in getting people back to work as well as a major saving in not having to pay Jobseeker’s Allowance, and possibly other benefits.

50. I also appreciate that there could be a substantial saving of public money if effective sanctions are available when jobseekers are not cooperating with proposals properly put to them under the Act. The Secretary of State’s object in these proceedings is not to end Jobseeker’s Allowance but to ensure that it is only paid to those actively seeking employment and prepared to cooperate with attempts made by the state to achieve that end. The entitlement to receive the weekly sum should depend on such cooperation.

[bluebottle]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Bluebottle I hope you are right but alas there are so many people that believe all people on JSA are work shy spongers who need a good kick in the pants.
Viva the Daily Torygraph and Daily fascist (sorry PlanB)

How very true.

[bluebottle]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

I've only just seen any details of the judgement, as opposed to the media coverage and the politicos' predictable misrepresentation on the Internet. In fact - as Elouise has said - it was no great ruling and dealt only with narrow issues, despite the hype that portrays it otherwise. Reading the extract below, the headlines would be more accurate saying something like:
Court of Appeal praises Government's back-to-work programme, but challenges financial systems.

But that wouldn't be such good copy would it?

**************************************
49. I readily appreciate the need for flexibility in devising arrangements which will achieve the statutory purpose of improving prospects of obtaining employment. The needs of jobseekers will vary infinitely as will the requirements of providers prepared to participate in arrangements with them. I am impressed with the care shown in attempting to devise arrangements and with the resources devoted to attempts to achieve the statutory purpose. There is an important public interest in getting people back to work as well as a major saving in not having to pay Jobseeker’s Allowance, and possibly other benefits.

50. I also appreciate that there could be a substantial saving of public money if effective sanctions are available when jobseekers are not cooperating with proposals properly put to them under the Act. The Secretary of State’s object in these proceedings is not to end Jobseeker’s Allowance but to ensure that it is only paid to those actively seeking employment and prepared to cooperate with attempts made by the state to achieve that end. The entitlement to receive the weekly sum should depend on such cooperation.

The reality is, Kafka, maladministration and malpractice is rife within the DWP and this need addressing as a matter of urgency. Removing Mr Ian Duncan "I'm-Totally-Out-of-Touch-With-Reality" Smith and replacing him with someone more humane is going to be difficult because Boy David would probably replace him with someone just as prejudiced, out of touch and arrogant as IDS.

[leclerc]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Well, there is always the European Court as long as we remain a member of the EU.
that's not actually correct. The European Court of Human Rights is something that we will continue to be a member of whether we are in our out of the EU. The court is made up of 47 members and not the 27 that are part of the EU.

More importantly, are the Tories going to win the next General Election? I doubt it - don't get me wrong I have always voted for them but have second thoughts.

David Cameron is very clever indeed. Now that more cuts are going to be introduced in April - whether you are working or on the Social - he is busy diverting the nation's attention to our relationship with Europe, and indeed promising a referendum etc. Very clever!

Needed to correct one part that may well have been missed.

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

DWP / Jobcentre Plus is a major problem. I'm not sure if this is due to ineffective civil service as a whole?

Employers don't trust Jobcentre Plus but rather use and pay private agencies. In most Nordic countries this is not the case (where benefits are actually better than here!).

Professional jobseekers can't possibly find a job that matches their skills and experience through Jobcentre Plus. Most jobs they have are those paying a minimum wage or less (in the name of apprenticeship).

When it comes to DWP, the government is just treating the symptons, not the cause. There's a lot of talk about universal credit etc. Will it work?

Currently the system works so that it actually penalises the ones who actively seek employment opportunities by taking short-term temp contracts, hoping that they would lead into something longer term. DWP would never admit it, but the system likes those who either find unsuitable employment through JC+ or stay on benefits. It simply cannot cope with people who might have a temp booking this week, followed by a period when no work is available. It's not unknown for those trying to keep themselves employed by doing temp work and signing on whenever nothing is available (which is their right) ending up being interviewed under caution by DWP fraud investigators!

[bluebottle]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Needed to correct one part that may well have been missed.

Absolutely, Leclerc. ECHR is run by the Council of Europe, a completely separate entity and nothing whatsoever to do with or linked to the European Union. However, UKIP and the Raving Right of the Conservative Party hope you don't know that.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

DWP / Jobcentre Plus is a major problem. I'm not sure if this is due to ineffective civil service as a whole?

Employers don't trust Jobcentre Plus but rather use and pay private agencies. In most Nordic countries this is not the case (where benefits are actually better than here!).

Professional jobseekers can't possibly find a job that matches their skills and experience through Jobcentre Plus. Most jobs they have are those paying a minimum wage or less (in the name of apprenticeship).

When it comes to DWP, the government is just treating the symptons, not the cause. There's a lot of talk about universal credit etc. Will it work?

Currently the system works so that it actually penalises the ones who actively seek employment opportunities by taking short-term temp contracts, hoping that they would lead into something longer term. DWP would never admit it, but the system likes those who either find unsuitable employment through JC+ or stay on benefits. It simply cannot cope with people who might have a temp booking this week, followed by a period when no work is available. It's not unknown for those trying to keep themselves employed by doing temp work and signing on whenever nothing is available (which is their right) ending up being interviewed under caution by DWP fraud investigators!

Indeed, I know this to be the case. The system is geared towards people going into perm or long-term employment and has actually gone backwards instead or forward. :rant: :rant:

I'm old enough to have claimed benefits during the last Big Recession, before most of you guys were even born :grin: All you had to do was tell the JC that you did some work that week, they'd give you a paper and you wrote the number of hours and signed it. The requisite amount was deducted from your benefits that week and that was that. This was the early 90s, before everything was fully computerised.

[jon1965]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

I am old enough to remember when you could sign on in the July when you left school and also in the uni long vacation

[Kafka]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

I am old enough to remember when you could sign on in the July when you left school and also in the uni long vacation

I was doing some research recently on the history of Pontypool and for modern stuff I had to skim through the weekly papers through the 50s and 60s. I was struck by the huge block ads by British Railways and the Coal Board, with lists of trades you could join or train for. The gulf between then and now was like thinking about the Flintstones

[jon1965]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Please don't judge me but I was watch This morning earlier and that dreadful DM columnist Quentin Letts who was saying they won on a technicality (when asked to explain he said it would take too long ). He then said that she should have worked as she was quite happy to accept the benefits.
Another reason (if I needed one) to hate the DM (hides from PlanB)