Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes :)

[FlamingParrot]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21426928

Back-to-work scheme breached laws, says Court of Appeal
A university graduate has won a legal challenge on appeal, claiming that a government scheme forces people to work without pay.
Cait Reilly, 24, claimed that requiring her to work for free at a Poundland store breached laws banning slavery and forced labour.

The University of Birmingham geology graduate lost her original case at the High Court, but has now won on appeal.

Her solicitors said this could have major implications for jobseekers.

Three judges in London ruled that the regulations under which most of the government's back-to-work schemes were created were unlawful and quashed them.

Miss Reilly, from Birmingham, and 40-year-old unemployed HGV driver Jamie Wilson, from Nottingham, both succeeded in their claims that the unpaid schemes were legally flawed.

Mr Wilson was told that his jobseeker's allowance would be stopped after he refused to take part in the Community Action Programme, which his lawyers said would have involved him working unpaid for 30 hours per week for six months.

Their solicitors said that the ruling meant "all those people who have been sanctioned by having their jobseekers' allowance withdrawn for non-compliance with the back-to-work schemes affected will be entitled to reclaim their benefits".

It's fair enough for some people convicted of criminal offences to be ordered to do Community Service, which usually replaces a custodial sentence and, for those who don't pose a danger to the community, is a much more positive experience which also benefits the community itself.

But to force people whose only 'crime' is to be out of work to do something similar, and to work for large, profit-making corporations, is beyond belief! :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :rant: :rant: :rant:

This is indeed excellent news! :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

[Eloise01]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Don't celebrate too soon! And to be clear before I get lumped in with the government, I am opposed to the Work Programme in its present form - although not to the principle of a fairer scheme (which I don't think this government would ever introduce). But the judgement does not say what most people think it does. The judgement supports the right for the government to have such a sceheme and to implement it. Their difference of opinion (and it is still only that until a decision is made by the Supreme Court - and depending on that decision, possibly by the European Court) is about the way in which it has currently been implemented. The current regulations relating to eligibility for JSA do not permit its withdrawal except where someone fails to meet prescribed conditions which are clearly set down. These do not include refusal to participate in work related training / schemes. Therefore, the government erred when they instructed DWP staff to say that it was compulsory for the receipt of JSA (that's the very short gist of the ruling).

However, regardless of possible further legal action, the government has already said what they will do - they will change the law and regulations to make it compulsory. And short of a miracle in the Coalition splitting, they will achieve this. Probably quite quickly, since they have an incentive. And you can be certain that (a) there won't be any loopholes next time and (b) they will probably make it even more draconian whilst doing it.

[enaid]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Yes I agree with you there they will make it fool proof, they have to as there is no other way they are ever going to get the jobless figures down. They can not get the figures down with actual jobs as there are none.
The Clone Clowns fail again

[Guest]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

I'll celebrate this human rights victory with you, FP - thanks for posting! :thumb:
And whilst I believe your technical explanation and knowledge, eloise, I cannot share your pessimism.
And I manifestly cannot agree that there are no jobs! te he!

No-one could call working at Poundland for free training :nono:
The training would end when the skills had been acquired. How long would that take?
After that, they'd have to be paid, or go back on JSA, by definition.
The government really should be careful with its words. Not to mention behaviour.
Slavery and forced labour still cannot be forced on anyone by the government unless we let them.

Shadowing a semi or highly skilled person, or people, OK - that's training :okay:
If you pay enough attention to detail here, 'working' at Legal Beagles could be considered 'training'.
The people, as well as the government, are the law-makers.
So, thanks for the unpaid training, all. :tinysmile_kiss_t4:
Back to 'work'.

[Eloise01]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

I'll celebrate this human rights victory with you, FP - thanks for posting! :thumb:
And whilst I believe your technical explanation, eloise, I cannot share your pessimism.

No-one could call working at Poundland for free training :nono:
The training would end when the skills had been acquired. How long would that take?
Therefore, after that, they'd have to be paid.
Shadowing a semi or highly skilled person, OK :okay:


If you pay enough attention, 'working' at Legal Beagles could be considered 'training'.
Anyone who sets a precedent is after all, forming the law.

Gosh - you have got to the point of editing posts before people can even answer them!

As you otherwise said:

I'll celebrate this human rights victory with you, FP - thanks for posting!
And whilst I believe your technical explanation, eloise - you could be underestimating people.
No-one could call working at Poundland for free training.
Unless the applicant had never acquired basic skills in life.
Shadowing a semi or highly skilled person, OK.
If you pay enough attention, 'working' at Legal Beagles could be considered 'training'.
Training for what, remains to be seen.

Who makes the law in this country - the statute makers or the precedent setters?
Oh, both..

It is not pessimism, nor is it underestimating people, to state the obvious and the realistic - and what the government have already said that they will do. I have already made it clear that I do not support the Work Programme, but there really are people who have not acquired basic skills in life. For example, some people find it amusing and totally entertaining that people get into debt and are hounded and harassed by DCA's and baliiffs, and express such views openly. One could easily argue that a few "basic skills in life" - such as empathy, or decency - could be missing in such a person. Couldn't one?

[Mr $quanda£ot]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Well, there is always the European Court as long as we remain a member of the EU.

More importantly, are the Tories going to win the next General Election? I doubt it - don't get me wrong I have always voted for them but have second thoughts.

David Cameron is very clever indeed. Now that more cuts are going to be introduced in April - whether you are working or on the Social - he is busy diverting the nation's attention to our relationship with Europe, and indeed promising a referendum etc. Very clever!

[Guest]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Government say they're 'going to do' a lot of things, eloise.
My argument still stands.
And I share the debt situation of almost every person in England.
A good man laughs at illusions, knowing them as such.
Others have ye to develop a sense of humour amongst their skills.
Back to work - bye.

P.S. Just came back for a little edit. Sorry about that, it would probably attract corporal punishment lol :laugh:

[Eloise01]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

And I share the debt situation of almost every person in England.

Then what could possibly be the explanation for your terrible comments a few days ago, other than you lack some basic life skills?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

Well, there is always the European Court as long as we remain a member of the EU.

More importantly, are the Tories going to win the next General Election? I doubt it - don't get me wrong I have always voted for them but have second thoughts.

David Cameron is very clever indeed. Now that more cuts are going to be introduced in April - whether you are working or on the Social - he is busy diverting the nation's attention to our relationship with Europe, and indeed promising a referendum etc. Very clever!

Clever? he is a Capitalist Moron: CaMoron who's ruining the country whilst doing nothing to tackle the root of the problem, which is the financial sector, of course. :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Cuts are not the solution, instead of paying people to do a job they will have to be paid benefits and forcing claimants to work for Poundland won't solve the problem of there not being enough jobs for everyone. The government should be providing incentives for businesses to grow and expand, rather than doing all the opposite. No-one wants to hire more people when there's the threat of yet more cuts having a ripple effect on the economy, thus unemployment remains high and benefits bills keep growing. :rant: :rant: :rant:

[dogtired]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

And we still have the ATOS scandal and the closure of the Remploy factories .

[Inca]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

deleted

[Kafka]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

This is very interesting, firstly because it will force a rethink about flaws in the Work Programme and secondly because an individual has beaten the system through the Court of Appeal. Having said that, this subject has largely been hijacked by political activists as yet another way of attacking the Govt. Unpaid short work experience wasn't introduced by the Coalition, but was there when Labour was in power (aswere the sanctions), but you don't realise this from the publicity. Its wholly misleading to refer to this as slave labour or 'workfare' - emotive terms used win support for anti-Govt causes. Its also deeply misleading to rubbish all work placements as exploitative or as never leading to success, but this is a natural consequence when legitimate causes get hijacked mainly for political reasons, as is also being cynically manipulated over the Work Capability Assessments.

I worked for awhile on the Work Programme in 2009 and for all of its flaws (then as now) the work placements were instrumental in providing opportunities for some very disadvantaged people who would never have been able to get any where without hard work by development staff and sympathetic employers. In many cases this didn't work - often for the lack of life skills already mentioned - but there were some remarkable successes too and I don't know if that would still be possible if employers were required to employ people on paying contracts. These could be people who actually suffer from the way things are going, even though they are the very people the Work programme is designed to help.

[john 1963]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

I'm sure Ian Duncan Slimeball will come up with a way around it

[Eloise01]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

This is very interesting, firstly because it will force a rethink about flaws in the Work Programme and secondly because an individual has beaten the system through the Court of Appeal. Having said that, this subject has largely been hijacked by political activists as yet another way of attacking the Govt. Unpaid short work experience wasn't introduced by the Coalition, but was there when Labour was in power (aswere the sanctions), but you don't realise this from the publicity. Its wholly misleading to refer to this as slave labour or 'workfare' - emotive terms used win support for anti-Govt causes. Its also deeply misleading to rubbish all work placements as exploitative or as never leading to success, but this is a natural consequence when legitimate causes get hijacked mainly for political reasons, as is also being cynically manipulated over the Work Capability Assessments.

I worked for awhile on the Work Programme in 2009 and for all of its flaws (then as now) the work placements were instrumental in providing opportunities for some very disadvantaged people who would never have been able to get any where without hard work by development staff and sympathetic employers. In many cases this didn't work - often for the lack of life skills already mentioned - but there were some remarkable successes too and I don't know if that would still be possible if employers were required to employ people on paying contracts. These could be people who actually suffer from the way things are going, even though they are the very people the Work programme is designed to help.

I agree. It may be personally satisfying to slate the government. I admit that I find it quite fun actually. But it does not enhance a mature debate about what we actually do about unemployment, because whatever you think about politics, and whoever is in government, they are still there. The human and financial costs of unemployment are unacceptable and not viable.

Back in the early '80's when a similarly despised Tory government was in power - possibly an even more despised one! - there was a work programme and it was compulsory after a certain period of unemployment. I cannot recall how long because it's a long time ago - but I think it was 6 months. The difference was that the jobs, which were in all sorts of sectors of employment, were "real" one year jobs which paid significantly more than benefits. At one time I think the wages were about £90 a week, which probably wasn't a great amount but it was definitely a hell of a lot more than unemployment benefit was. I don't remember many more details about it. But one thing I do know is that I know loads of people who got their career start on it! For someit was a first job, for others an opportunity to change direction. I recall one neighbour who had lost his job in a factory going to work on a victim support scheme and ending up loving it so much that he made it a new career.

There is no way to create a scheme that suits everyone, and there will be some people (a minority) for whom no scheme will do because they actually do not want to work. But there are better ways of doing this than what we have now.

[jon1965]

Re: Excellent news for people forced into government back-to-work schemes

$quanderlot, shame on you....I had it on good authority you were a nice person :rofl:

FP as you say community service is completely different in that the maximum that can be given at any one time is 300 hours and the work done generally benefits the community.
As for working and training, I remember 20 years ago we had people on 3 weeks unpaid work experience and to be honest the quality of people was low, however for a couple of people it turned into a full time job. The problem was that even then the pressure on profits were so high it was easy to see these people as free labour.
I can not see the benefit of getting someone with average social skills to work for 6 months without pay at poundland or any high put through retail outlet.