Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

[johnnykreese]

Received a claim? Yes
Issue Date: 2-7-2015
Amount approx: 5116.89
Claimant: Cabot Financial (UK) Limited
Solicitor: Mortimer Clarke Solicitors Ltd
Original Credit: Sainsburys

Particulars of Claim:
By an agreement between SAINSBURYS (SAIN) & the defendant on or around 18/12/2007 ('the Agreement') SAIN agreed to loan the Defendant monies. The Defendant did not pay the instalments as they fell due & the Agreement was terminated. The Agreement was assigned to the Claimant. THE CLAIMANT THEREFORE CLAIMS 4851.89

Stat Barred? Yes

Have sent:

Other Info:
They got my Christian name wrong on the Claim Form. Judging by the woeful English in the particulars I am guessing its just a typo/sloppy job?

I have applied for a copy of my statutory credit report which will be available in 2-3 days. This will hopefully help in identifying the debt as I do not recognize it.

I have periodically received harassment for this debt in writing and by telephone. On one occasion a debt collector called at my family home (where I no longer live) and harassed my elderly parents. He was given short shrift by my father and has not returned.

I have never acknowledged the debt or responded to any of the various debt collectors this debt has been hawked around over the years as I do not recognize the debt. I have not made a payment to anyone towards this debt. I do not off the top of my head know the dates of the original loan agreement which I think this debt stems from - hopefully my credit report will show (or not show) these details.

I have not completed any of the steps above re: Acknowledging the claim, sending a CCA request and sending a CPR 31.13 request. Should I do these immediately as advised?

I believe the debt is either statute barred or very close to becoming statute barred hence the sudden action after so many years. I suspect the debt is unenforceable which is why this has not happened sooner.

I am completely new to this and have never received a court summons before and I'm very anxious and feeling a little overwhelmed by it all.

Many thanks!

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Received a claim? Yes
Issue Date: 2-7-2015
Amount approx: 5116.89
Claimant: Cabot Financial (UK) Limited
Solicitor: Mortimer Clarke Solicitors Ltd
Original Credit: Sainsburys

Particulars of Claim:
By an agreement between SAINSBURYS (SAIN) & the defendant on or around 18/12/2007 ('the Agreement') SAIN agreed to loan the Defendant monies. The Defendant did not pay the instalments as they fell due & the Agreement was terminated. The Agreement was assigned to the Claimant. THE CLAIMANT THEREFORE CLAIMS 4851.89

Stat Barred? Yes

Have sent:

Other Info:
They got my Christian name wrong on the Claim Form. Judging by the woeful English in the particulars I am guessing its just a typo/sloppy job?

I have applied for a copy of my statutory credit report which will be available in 2-3 days. This will hopefully help in identifying the debt as I do not recognize it.

I have periodically received harassment for this debt in writing and by telephone. On one occasion a debt collector called at my family home (where I no longer live) and harassed my elderly parents. He was given short shrift by my father and has not returned.

I have never acknowledged the debt or responded to any of the various debt collectors this debt has been hawked around over the years as I do not recognize the debt. I have not made a payment to anyone towards this debt. I do not off the top of my head know the dates of the original loan agreement which I think this debt stems from - hopefully my credit report will show (or not show) these details.

Welcome aboard

Did you ever take a Sainsbury's loan? If you don't recognise the debt, how would you know that it is statute barred? The particulars say it dates back to December 2007, which isn't that long ago, does that ring any bells?

I have not completed any of the steps above re: Acknowledging the claim, sending a CCA request and sending a CPR 31.13 request. Should I do these immediately as advised?

Yes, you should. If a claim is not acknowledged within 14 days, the claimant can request default judgment. :scared:

I believe the debt is either statute barred or very close to becoming statute barred hence the sudden action after so many years. I suspect the debt is unenforceable which is why this has not happened sooner.

I am completely new to this and have never received a court summons before and I'm very anxious and feeling a little overwhelmed by it all.

Many thanks!

If you borrowed £5,000 (a fairly common loan amount) in December 2007 and made only a handful of payments, this could be the balance claimed including interest and charges.

For reference, below are the steps to take with links to the template letters:

1: ACKNOWLEDGE THE CLAIM - you can do this online usually at www.moneyclaim.gov.uk
You'll need your claim reference and password from the front of the claim form - this will extend the time you have to respond to the claim to 28 days from when you received it

2: Send A CCA REQUEST to the CLAIMANT ( see here )
This applies to all credit cards / loans / hire purchase / store cards type debt. It doesn't apply to Mobile Phones / Utilities or Overdrafts.

3: Send a CPR request to the CLAIMANT'S SOLICITORS ( see here )
This applies to everything unless they happen to have supplied you with a bunch of paperwork to back up their claim (v. unlikely)

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

I would also suggest sending a SAR to Sainsbury's Bank (not to Cabot as they wouldn't have any data until they bought the account). They have 40 days to respond to a SAR and that would take you over the 33 days you have from date printed on claim to file a defence, however, Mortimer Clarke are usually agreeable to a 28 day extension to file your defence once you've sent your CPR request and they've not provided the documents. That means you could have the SAR results by then. In any case, it would be good to find out what Sainsbury's has. It would cost you £10 but it should be worth it.

Below is the SAR letter. It should be sent recorded delivery with a cheque or PO for £10. They have 40 days to respond:

Dear Sirs

Ref: xxxxxxxx

Subject Access Request - S.7 Data Protection Act 1998

Under the Data Protection Act 1984 and 1998, and including the right of subject access under these acts, I hereby request that you supply me with any and all historical data in your possession which, in any way appertains to me, including (but not exhaustively) a copy of the original signed executed agreement; statements of account; duplicate statements and/or printouts of all account transactions; all internal and external correspondence sent or received by you including memos, logs, notes, screen prints and transcripts; notes of manual interventions such as telephone attendants' notes, copies of stored telephone conversations, internal and external emails; any other information held on all types of media in any relevant filing system. If you have disclosed any information to a third party (with or without my express permission), will you please include details of this in your reply, along with notes of any legal action passed or pending (to include a true copy of default notices, court orders and the like).

If you store any of the older records on microfiche, please be aware that the Information Commissioner deems this to be a relevant filing system under the Act. As such, any microfiche data must be sent to me in fully legible and comprehensible form.

Where any information that you provide includes any charges, for example returned payments, late payment fees, and so forth, would you please advise your breakdown of actual costs (liquidated damages) incurred for each charge, and the Term or Condition on which you rely upon to claim such a charge. I also require that you forward, within the above mentioned time scale, a true copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions.

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with you. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10.00 to access ALL data held by you about myself. You have 40 days in which to comply with this request.

Yours faithfully,

[johnnykreese]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Hello and thank you so much for the fast reply! :tinysmile_twink_t2:

With regards remembering the loan in question, I am being careful about what I say. I'm new to all this and posting this or that here could maybe be construed as acknowledging the debt? Please advise me if not. I guess I can say that 'it rings a bell' but without concrete information I would prefer not to speculate (ha!). I had a meltdown financially around this time, had lost my job, suffered depression and defaulted on a few things iirc. I then did my best to survive without credit of any sort and have gradually rebuilt my career etc. This coming now so far down the road really has the potential to completely bugger me over to be honest. I had always know about the possibility of past debt coming to haunt me but I was hoping the lack of prior court action meant that it was either written off or could not be enforced. I do not have any other CCJ's and have recently gained credit card offers, utility credit without any problems (including Virgin Media BB etc) and so was starting to believe I could begin rebuilding my credit.

Question: By submitting a SAR to Sainsburys would I only be asking for what Cabot would hold as well? I'm not going to open a can of worms there am I?

I will acknowledge the claim tomorrow morning. I was going to base my defence firstly on not acknowledging the debt (so ask for what Cabot has to prove I owe anything at all) and then if possible on it being statute barred. Failing that I would expect to come to an agreement through mediation to avoid an inevitable CCJ?

[nemesis45]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Hi,

First Acknowledge Service and intention to defend.

Then a CCA request to Cabot for the agreement. £1 statutory fee to pay: Use a cheque or Postal Order for this, endorse it " For Statutory Fee Only. Cabot has 12 + 2 Working Days to comply. there is a template in the forum library for this. use signed for post.

Next a request made under Civil Procedure Rule 31.14 for the documents mentioned in the particulars of claim No fee for this.

In this claim you ask for the Agreement, The Termination Notice and the Notice of Assignment.

This goes to the solicitors a nominal 7 days is allowed for compliance. Template in The Forum Library for the request.

Your credit reference files (Noddle from Call Credit is free online) will hopefully reveal some useful information.

Cabot is unlikely to know the status of the debt regards limitations.

The " 6 year Clock" starts ticking in regard to a Loan when the creditor can first Demand Immediate Payment in Full.

nem

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Hello and thank you so much for the fast reply! :tinysmile_twink_t2:

With regards remembering the loan in question, I am being careful about what I say. I'm new to all this and posting this or that here could maybe be construed as acknowledging the debt? Please advise me if not. I guess I can say that 'it rings a bell' but without concrete information I would prefer not to speculate (ha!).

To clarify, acknowledging the debt for the purposes of limitation is no longer an issue at this stage as the clock stops when a claim is issued. Once a debt is SBd, it cannot be 'un-barred', so if it was SBd at the time the claim was issued, it wouldn't make any difference whether it's acknowledged later.

Also bear in mind that the acknowledgment has to be made by you to the creditor in writing under your own name, posting up on a forum under an assumed name that you admit a debt has no effect.

Question: By submitting a SAR to Sainsburys would I only be asking for what Cabot would hold as well? I'm not going to open a can of worms there am I?

No, you can't ask Sainsburys for what Cabot holds, however, they would hold very little, debts are sold in job lots with no paperwork and very little detail, which is why there's not much point to send a SAR to Cabot. A possible exception would be if you had been making payments to Cabot after they bought the debt.

I will acknowledge the claim tomorrow morning. I was going to base my defence firstly on not acknowledging the debt (so ask for what Cabot has to prove I owe anything at all) and then if possible on it being statute barred. Failing that I would expect to come to an agreement through mediation to avoid an inevitable CCJ?

If you don't get the documents by the time your defence is due (and hardly anyone ever gets them), then your defence can be a generic defence based around lack of paperwork and it can also be combined with a SBd defence. If you say the debt is SBd, the burden of proof is on the claimant to show it is not, not on yourself to show it is. :thumb:

The problem with saying that you don't recognise this debt is that you can't then argue that it's SBd, how would you know that if it isn't yours? Would you know when my debts become SBd?

[nemesis45]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Hello and thank you so much for the fast reply! :tinysmile_twink_t2:

With regards remembering the loan in question, I am being careful about what I say. I'm new to all this and posting this or that here could maybe be construed as acknowledging the debt? Please advise me if not. I guess I can say that 'it rings a bell' but without concrete information I would prefer not to speculate (ha!). I had a meltdown financially around this time, had lost my job, suffered depression and defaulted on a few things iirc. I then did my best to survive without credit of any sort and have gradually rebuilt my career etc. This coming now so far down the road really has the potential to completely bugger me over to be honest. I had always know about the possibility of past debt coming to haunt me but I was hoping the lack of prior court action meant that it was either written off or could not be enforced. I do not have any other CCJ's and have recently gained credit card offers, utility credit without any problems (including Virgin Media BB etc) and so was starting to believe I could begin rebuilding my credit.

Question: By submitting a SAR to Sainsburys would I only be asking for what Cabot would hold as well? I'm not going to open a can of worms there am I?

I will acknowledge the claim tomorrow morning. I was going to base my defence firstly on not acknowledging the debt (so ask for what Cabot has to prove I owe anything at all) and then if possible on it being statute barred. Failing that I would expect to come to an agreement through mediation to avoid an inevitable CCJ?

Cabot will only have minimal data from the purchase of the debt just not worth the £10 fee.
Acknowledging or not is no use at this stage Cabot has to prove to the satisfaction of a court
that you are liable the agreement must be enforceable.
You will be told at a later stage if the claim is suitable for mediation, if the agreement is not to hand when
you are contacted by HMCTS Small Claims Mediation Service the mediator will decline to continue and return
the claim to your local court.

nem

[johnnykreese]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Thanks again guys! Great info and has given me much better idea of how this works. I'll get cracking on the paperwork tomorrow and will update the thread as I hear something new.

[johnnykreese]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Just doing the letters now (CCA/CPR). I was wondering what do I put for a reference no on the CCA letter? I have none. Only the court documents. They didn't supply anything to identify the 'loaned monies' in their particulars?

Do I just put Re: Claim No. XXXXX in the County Court Business Center ?

Also would a more comprehensive CCA letter like this one:

Dear Sirs,

Reference: 123456789

I hereby formally request a copy of my Consumer Credit Agreement, pursuant to s.77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974).

I require that you provide me with a true copy, or reconstituted copy of the credit agreement relating to any account you deem to be mine, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide. I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit (12 + 2 days).

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties. Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b), 6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

I also remind you of your duties, in line with recent FCA Consumer Credit Sourcebook (CONC) guidelines surrounding Unenforceability I presume you're aware that it suggests that 'sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 outline the information creditors must provide to debtors under fixed-term, running account & Hire Agreements'. This simply means that under these sections a debtor can pay £1 to get:
1. a copy of their agreement
2. copies of some of the other documents mentioned in their agreement
3. a statement of account

If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable. This means a creditor cannot:
1. make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to
2. get a court judgment against the debtor

So, in line with these (FCA CONC) guidelines, and the Consumer Credit Act, please find attached my £1 payment, which is the statutory fee to request any such documentation regards this account - note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose. If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee and then remove the incorrect entry from your systems.

I do, expect the main actions to be dealt with, as matter of course, and look forward to hearing from you within the prescribed time-scales quoted however, in the meantime, I require that you clarify your position on this point as failure to do so, even by omission or lack of a response, will be regarded as an attempt to deliberately misrepresent or conceal the legal position regarding this matter to which an appropriate complaint will be made to the Financial Conduct Authority.

Yours faithfully,



Sign Digitally / Type Name

Help to reduce the letter tennis a bit since time is pressing? Or would it make no odds?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Just doing the letters now (CCA/CPR). I was wondering what do I put for a reference no on the CCA letter? I have none. Only the court documents. They didn't supply anything to identify the 'loaned monies' in their particulars?

They don't always include the account number on the particulars of claim.

Do I just put Re: Claim No. XXXXX in the County Court Business Center ?

The claim number goes on the CPR request, the CCA request is not directly related to the claim as such, it can be sent at any time.

Also would a more comprehensive CCA letter like this one:

Help to reduce the letter tennis a bit since time is pressing? Or would it make no odds?

There won't be much letter tennis, they simply won't have the documents and will have to go back to Sainsbury's to obtain them. They're not very likely to get them before your defence is due. For a loan you'd need to quote s.77 of the Consumer Credit Act on your letter.

You don't want to chase the CCA request as non-compliance works against them and they cannot enforce as long as they are in default. The CPR request is the one you should chase once the 7 days are up. :thumb:

[johnnykreese]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Once again thank you so much!

[johnnykreese]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Hi again guys. I signed up for Noodle today because the £2 report I paid for from Experian never arrived (unsurprisingly).

I found the debt in question is still on my credit file.

The default date is shown as being 5 years 6 months ago: 31/12/2009.

I sent the CCA and CPR off. I also sent a SAR to Sainsburys. Since I no longer bank with the same people I did back when I was making payments on this loan I can't look up when the last payment was made.

Will the SAR show this?

I guess my Sbd is shot down now unless it was 6 months between my last payment and the default. Which it likely was not.

In which case do I still have any defence at all? I am guessing its basically can they produce the CCA and will what they produce satisfy the court?

Also assuming they can produce the CCA, can I still offer to settle on a repayment plan without getting a CCJ? Or will I get a CCJ and an enforced repayment plan?

Confess I am feeling very low right now. I've worked so hard to move on and for the sake of 6 months its all going down the pan. I would have been better off going bankrupt 6 years ago ..

If I could go back in time I'd never lend my 20 year old self anything! I was so stupid back then. *sigh

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

The SAR should include statements showing your payments. Default dates don't accurately reflect SBd status, they are often recorded late or people make payments or written offers afterwards.

If they can't supply the documents they may have to discontinue. ray: If they find the CCA it may or may not be enforceable. There are a number of variables.

If it looks like your defence would fail you could settle with a Tomlin order to avoid a CCJ but this would be a last resort having exhausted everything else.

There's always a solution, however, when it comes to the legal process it's always a waiting game. :ranger:

[nemesis45]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Hi again guys. I signed up for Noodle today because the £2 report I paid for from Experian never arrived (unsurprisingly).

I found the debt in question is still on my credit file.

The default date is shown as being 5 years 6 months ago: 31/12/2009.

I sent the CCA and CPR off. I also sent a SAR to Sainsburys. Since I no longer bank with the same people I did back when I was making payments on this loan I can't look up when the last payment was made.

Will the SAR show this?

I guess my Sbd is shot down now unless it was 6 months between my last payment and the default. Which it likely was not.

In which case do I still have any defence at all? I am guessing its basically can they produce the CCA and will what they produce satisfy the court?

Also assuming they can produce the CCA, can I still offer to settle on a repayment plan without getting a CCJ? Or will I get a CCJ and an enforced repayment plan?

Confess I am feeling very low right now. I've worked so hard to move on and for the sake of 6 months its all going down the pan. I would have been better off going bankrupt 6 years ago ..

If I could go back in time I'd never lend my 20 year old self anything! I was so stupid back then. *sigh

It is possible that there was a gap of 6 months between last payment an default.

The SB 6 year "clock " started ticking when the creditor could first demand immediate payment of the debt in full, you should have received a " Demand for Payment and /or a " Final Demand for Payment.".
A SAR should turn up these important letters.

nem

[johnnykreese]

Re: Court Claim - Cabot Financial (UK) Limited / Sainsburys - 2-7-2015

Well today I got a letter from Sainsbury's bank. Not the one I was expecting. I sent a SAR to them last week and today a letter containing a cheque for £50 and an apology for wrongly applying charges to my loan arrived instead.

Will post up letter body tomorrow morning.