Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

[Andy202]

Thought I'd mention this on here in the hope of getting fresh eyes and thoughts on this matter.

It's a matter that seems to relate to a claimed broken credit agreement from 2007. In that I've received countless letters for a claimed credit agreement in my name over the years. Despite my denying and knowledge of this agreement and asking for proof of welcome have always until now failed to provide this agreement evidence.

In 2013 just before the matter would have become statute barred they issued a claim against me via the courts. I responded to the claim, filed a defence of it being nothing to do with me and asked for all the claim evidence and particulars when I returned the defence to the court. But I heard nothing back at all from the courts and assumed the matter dropped. As it turned out it seems welcome finance failed to respond to my defence and did absolutely nothing to bring the case to a hearing and effectively walked away from the legal action at that point. And as far as I know welcome finance\IND never even presented any case evidence to the court in 2013 either

Then a number of months later in 2013 I start to receive the usual letters threatening legal action unless I pay for this credit agreement that I know nothing about. Yet my partner reminds me that I did respond to 1 of their letters in 2013 by sending them a copy of my passport to try and prove my innocence. I then hear nothing for about 2 years when the letters start again. Late last year I then receive a letter from IND to say that they had been to court to be substituted as the claimant in this case and include the courts assignment order.

Early this year I get a further letter from the courts to say that the case has been transferred to a local county court and I then receive a fresh hearing notice (but same claim number as in 2013) with a date for hearing and various directions from the judge etc. This included to disclosure all the evidence on which they intend to rely on at the hearing. This disclosure never turned up by the deadline and I informed the court twice prior to the disclosure deadline of my concerns of not having yet received the disclosure and 3 times after the deadline as without the disclosure I was unable to get any representation and be given any practical time to examine and question this evidence.

The case went to hearing this past Wednesday where having pointed out to the judge I'd not received the disclosure IND handed the judge a signed statement or something from someone to say it was dispatched and so the judge wouldn't accept I'd not received the disclosure. So I get the chance for a quick look at the judges copy, 50 odd pages worth and on face value looks pretty damming. Photocopies of an agreement that appears to have my signature on, but certainly not signed by me and could easily have been lifted from the previous passport photocopy and electronically put onto an agreement or signed by someone else altogether. Very poor passport photocopy, photocopy of a dodgy looking single page of bank statement that I don't recognise and I certainly never had the bank balance at that time that this bank statement suggests I had as well as a pointless credit card statement. Also missing is 1 very vital piece of information or evidence above anything else that could make a difference.

Yet non of the original copies of any agreement or anything was brought despite it being stated all original documents were to be brought to the hearing. I tried to dispute this evidence and me needing time to examine everything, get representation and seeing if I can at least verify the back statements authenticity as I for 1 don't think it's genuine. Also missing is a number of letters I'd sent to IND and a good 2 year gap in their lack of anything since the original 2013 hearing, for which they fail to show or indicate why they never responded to my defence at the time and disclosed the evidence in the 2013 or why they never moved forwards with the hearing then.

As it is now, case adjourned for 4 weeks and I finally have a copy of the disclosure which I need to look through.

So any ideas as firstly they never produced the original agreement evidence, I never signed it and I don't believe the bank statement to be genuine either. I guess I'm within my legal right to challenge the evidence authenticity?. Also as its the same case number as in 2013, if they never responded to my defence or disclosure request, well seems like the court put the case into stay mode by default. But could I still try to use a statue barred claim seeing as welcome failed to respond to the hearing action in 2013 and so probably shouldn't have been put into stay by the court?.

[Debt Camel]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

But could I still try to use a statue barred claim seeing as welcome failed to respond to the hearing action in 2013 and so probably shouldn't have been put into stay by the court?.

No. The legal proceedings would have stopped the clock running, so if the debt wouldn't have been statute barred in 2014 it still isn't.

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Can you clarify something.

Are you saying that you may have been the victim of identity theft since you know nothing of this loan account and that the documents IND produced at court may have been fraudulent ones (submitted by whoever made the application)?

Or have I misunderstood your post?

In the meantime I see the DJ has given you 4 weeks' to deal with this claim (adjourned the hearing) because he believed you when you said that you hadn't had disclosure from the Claimant until you arrived at the court on the day of the hearing.

Have you filed a Witness Statement yet?

The first thing you should do is send a s 77-79 CCA Request to the Claimant with a copy to their solicitors. Do it by Royal Mail Recorded Delivery and do it fast (or have you already sent one?)

This forum has a template letter in this link if you need it >

http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...=7670#post7670

Di

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Thanks for the replies, sorry it's took time to reply, been busy with other matters to. I've yet to officially hear from the court regarding the case adjournment or their (the courts response) to the mutually agreed adjournment or the new date but was told it would be about 4 Weeks at the hearing this past Wednesday. The judge and or welcome finances representative IND seemed to indicate that as I'd filed a defence back in 2013 that it was that defence that could be used. Yet any defence I filed back in 2013 could surely be invalid anyway seeing as it was based mainly on my lack on knowledge of the claim and having never received anything back when I filed my defence with the court back 2013. Which was partly my thought if I could still use a statue barred or strike out claim on the basis they failed to respond to and comply with the defence and disclosure request in 2013 via the courts and so possibly in breach of the case hearing process in 2013 if they ignored my court filed defence?.

But to clarify yes, I do feel that I could possibly be a victim of identity fraud if any part of this claims details are accurate as I've never applied for any form of credit agreement with welcome finance that I know of. And in all honesty I feel welcome at least, if not IND may also realise this as a possibility as firstly this evidence has took 10 years to find, welcome never proceeded to hearing with this evidence they claimed to have in 2013. That even when last week IND (either as the effective current debt owners or working on behalf of welcome as not fully clear) failed to present me with disclosure, convinced a judge with a signed statement of preparation (yet never postal proof) I had been sent disclosure even if a day or few late. Which in any case would certainly have prevented me from inspecting the disclosure and responding to their witness statement in the deadline imposed by the court. So does IND realise there are possible holes in their claim that if given time to investigate, question, look into and get representation for could get the case thrown out?.

As when I did I expect the disclosure on the day of the hearing and later when eventually received the disclosure did I first ever set eyes on what any real details of this claim or evidence was in the many years this has been going on!. But whilst the judge rejected my claims to having never received the disclosure prior to the hearing and didn't want to listen to my pleas of having informed the court of and offered proof of informing the court of the lack of disclosure by the deadline at the hearing he just didn't seem to want to listen to or really entertain my claims that the agreement evidence can't be true. But did decide to adjournment to allow me to inspect the disclosure fully and try to gain legal advice and representation which just wasn't possible without the disclosure.

And neither did I feel it was possible to file my own witness statement at the time prior to the hearing as I was told my 2013 response would\could be used. And I didn't know if I could file anything with the court until I received the disclosure as I didn't know what exactly I was to present a response or witness statement to or against or ever raise issue of missing letters or case evidence etc. Something I feel IND were deliberately delaying giving me the ability to deal with as despite anything else as said IND convinced the court even if a little late past the deadline disclosure was served but at a point it would have been to late to point out missing evidence, amend my 2013 defence or add evidence in reasonable time any updated defence as the disclosure for both sides had expired by then.

As said neither was there any mention of the original copies of the signed agreement or other evidence also brought despite it being in the judges pretty hearing directions that they were to be brought to the hearing, yet looks like IND failed to offer them as evidence on the day (things were running late anyway). Also missing in the disclosure as I said, was letters I sent to welcome\IND as well as a lack of anything after my filed eatly 2013 defence until 2015 or any reasoning for it.

But yes, I do feel this evidence can't be authentic as firstly the original agreement copies were never brought as far as known, seems to be missing some ID, such as proof of income (payslips etc) and only a single bank statement page from a claimed 2007 bank statement which at best looks rather dodgy to me on a number of fronts. But waiting until Tuesday now to see if the bank in question can or is willing to verify authenticity of the 2007 statement page and its content.

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Also to clarify, the disclosure did eventually include what seems to be a photocopy of the signed credit agreement, and whilst it looks like it could be my signature, I never signed any such item at any point!.

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

I've read your posts and in order to help you may I ask a direct question without you seeing it as accusatory. I'm happy to help you.

Did you or did you not take out a loan with Welcome finance?

Whether IND can prove that or not is a separate issue.

If they can't prove it then they may not be successful in these court proceedings.

Di

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Thanks for the reply Diana & no offence taken in any way to your question. But no, I have never applied for any form of credit agreement with welcome finance at any point. And I've spent several years at least trying to tell that to welcome finance and trying to convince them and asking them to prove otherwise. For which I tried at some point after 2013 by sending them a copy of my passport to verify my ID knowing they had the wrong person.

But in honesty there are circumstances which since some of the details of the disclosure has come to light that I've never known until this last week that gives the real possibility of identity fraud might just be behind this. Because as said some evidence I'm convinced can't be true or genuine, such as the claimed signed credit agreement, just a single page of a claimed bank statement, so where is the rest?, missing is evidence like what I'd assume would need to be proof of income like payslips from work to prove income as part of any credit agreement process etc.

But frustrating me is that the judge indicated that above anything else that far as long as a signed agreement exists that is all he might need to consider as anything else anyway to find against me to decide a credit agreement does exist and find me liable if he feels satisfied the signed agreement is genuine and is definitely signed by myself!. But could have miss heard what he was indicating with regards to that.

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Have you filed a Witness Statement yet?

The first thing you should do is send a s 77-79 CCA Request to the Claimant with a copy to their solicitors. Do it by Royal Mail Recorded Delivery and do it fast (or have you already sent one?)

This forum has a template letter in this link if you need it >

http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...=7670#post7670

Di

Have you sent a CCA Request as I suggested in an earlier post (if you have not already done that)?

Have/did you send a CPR 31.14 Request to the Claimant's solicitors, and if so did you ask for the Default Notice and Notice/Deed of Assignment and disclosure of any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim ?

And have you filed a Witness Statement?

Without knowing what you pleaded in your Defence there's nothing more I can add, but did you deny that you ever had an account with Welcome? What other legal arguments did you put forward?

If you think the DJ said it would be up to him to decide if that was your signature on the credit agreement then expect him to give Directions for a handwriting expert.

Di

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

I should also say that you may need to file an Amended Defence in the light of the recent late disclosure by the Claimant.

See what the court Order says when it arrives since it may include Directions and/or give you permission to file an Amended Defence (normally you would need to make an Application to do that unless the other party are willing to consent to it).

Di

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Some more questions - sorry if this seems bitty but your posts are very long so some potential issues aren't obvious at first sight.

In post # 1 you say this claim is about a "broken credit agreement from 2007". Do you mean the credit agreement was broken (i.e. defaulted) in 2007 but may have been opened earlier?

What date was the loan apparently opened?

Was there anything stated in the POC about a default date?

What is the claim Issue Date from 2013?

Could this debt be Statute Barred even if it's not your account?

I'm assuming these proceedings are in the Small Claims Court (from things you've said) so how much are they claiming?

Di

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Thanks again for your replies, and so sorry if my posts are long Diana, but greatful for your and any replies, I'm just looking through the witness statement and disclosure to check some details as asked and requested.

But also to add that there are also some very interesting or indicating comments in the witness statement alone. Including IND being assigned all legal rights, title and interest in the claimed debt owed mid 2016. Also IND wanting to rely upon CPR 33.2(1)(b), notice of intention to rely on hearsay evidence whatever that means?. Except the person making the witness statement also adds in regards to the above they have no personal knowledge of the accounts conduct prior to the claim\transfer of ownership. There are also other parts of the witness statement that might be of interest but there is just over 4 pages of it!.

Anyway, to clarify requested information, the claim looks to have been applied for in May 2007, but provided statement information suggests no repayment was ever made. So guess the default would have been after first payment was due?.

Yes, I did as part of my response to the court hearing claim in 2013 make a request under CPR 31.14 (the witness statement confirms this) as well as a Section 77 request. Yet nothing was ever received in 2013 or since until the disclosure last week. And neither have IND provided any evidence that they did comply with a CPR 31.14 & section 77 request, but just a claim it was by a person who states in the WS that they are making the claim simply on hearsay!.

No I have filed nothing since my initial 2013 defence, which in fairness I couldn't since I'd never received the claimed evidence in either 2013 or at any point since until last week. As said, I never knew until now exactly what I had to file a defence against. Except at the time in 2013 I could only really deny any knowledge or involvement is this matter of having ever have had any dealing with welcome finance, either wrong person or a false claim. I also added at that point a filed a CPR 31.14 & Section 77 request. I also added that beyond the claimed monies owed that the claim (in 2013) beyond monies claimed (about £4500+ at the time) no details relating to the dates or particulars were mentioned in their claim.

Yet funny enough, whilst the disclosure includes my filed defence to the court in 2013 it's missing welcome finances (or IDN) original claim notice from 2013!. The witness statement makes comment regarding my mentioning the lack of any claim details beyond the sums claimed in 2013 (details and particulars) and cited to limited a space to include this!.

Yes Diana, I was thinking I would need to file an amended defence, more so as the disclosure is missing information, like letters I sent IND, letters IND claim to have sent to me yet I'd never received. As disclosure was late and only recently received and having not yet heard from the court there is not to much I can do as I'm not aware of what directions the judge will make yet.

The current claim is for £5300 odd and yes, is in the small claim court as well. Their is no clear stated default date that I can see except if no payment was ever made, I assume just after first owed date, June\July 2007?.

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Straight answers to straight questions please.

1. On what exact date was the loan account opened - you've only referred to it as in May 2007 but the full date matters. Where did you get that May 2007 date reference from?

2. Can you confirm that no repayments were ever made - you know this because statements have been disclosed or are you guessing and assuming this?

3. Nowhere throughout these legal proceedings has a Default Notice or remedy date or Default/Termination Date been produced. Is that right? Your suggestion of June/July 2007 is guesswork I presume.

4. What is the exact claim Issue Date? Please state DD/MM//YYYY.

You may have answered some of my questions in your last very long post so the information is perhaps buried.

Di

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

1, 31st May 2007, it's stated in the witness statement and the apparent agreement photocopy.

2, Based on whats in the disclosure no payments were ever made. Whilst this is not clearly stated in the witness statement itself it is indicated in an account statement that no repayment were ever made.

3, Not that I can see, certainly nothing prior to this disclosure so yes my original assumption would be about July 2007 at a guess. There is a letter from IND dated 7th April 2017 in the disclosure (but never received previously) that states Notice Of Sums In Arrears. This seems to be indicating or suggesting this credit account is still active or been reactivated by IND recently and something about making payments. There is also a letter from IND in the disclosure prior to this dated Feb 24th 2013 titled Last Letter Before Legal Proceedings which states full payment to be made by 12 March 2013 legal proceedings will be commenced.

4, I have a Notice of Transfer of Proceedings (to transfer from Northampton to local court) dated 27th January 2017. And a Notice of Allocation to the Small Claims Track(Hearing) dated 9th February 2017 with a number of directions by the judge. The original claim date from 2013 is not clear as their original claim form via the court in Northampton is not included, just my defence filed with the court which I signed & dated as the 20th March 2013.

[Diana M]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

Did you plead Statute Barred in your original Defence?

The Claimant says the account was opened on 31st May 2007 as evidenced by a credit agreement (whether that document is compliant or not is a separate issue).

From what you say no payments were ever made after it was opened (31st May 2007).

The LBA from IND says they will issue proceedings on or after 12th March 2013 so if they did issue in March they may have done it just in time to beat the SB clock.

You don't have the claim Issue Date and you say it's not mentioned in any of the disclosure from the Claimant. Call the court to see if it's on file.

The IND Notice of Sums in Arrears may be in relation to s.86 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...d-default-sums

Was there PPI on this loan and do the statements show substantial additional charges?

Who are the solicitors acting for IND?

Di

[Andy202]

Re: Unknown Welcome Finance\IND finance court claim hearing

I'm assuming I'd have to call the local court the case was transferred to than the original Northampton? seeing as the case was transferred early this year to my local court?. Might be handy to get the original claim date anyway I guess.

But based on IND's final letter before action saying legal action will be commenced unless full payment is made by the 12 March 2013, that they will issue a claim against me at Northampton court on the 13th March. As my defence form from Northampton court was signed 20th March they well have filed it early as I recall nearly missing a deadline to get it back to the court.

No, I never made a statue barred claim in my original defence in 2013 as I was under the impression (from letters prior to original 2013 claim) that a long enough period had likely not passed to allow that and without the dates and case particulars I requested at the time, yet never received, I was never able to make such a claim anyway. Welcome even state in there WS that there was not room to add this information in the claim form?.

Yes, there does seem to be PPI on the agreement, over £900 on top of a £3000 credit agreement.

But to add (sorry but might be relevant) part of the witness statement adds, that as the claimant has only demanded payment of arrears (£5324) and served a Notice of Sums in arrears on 7th April 2017 (as said never received). And as they are only claiming the arrears and not any earlier sum that the claimant was not required to issue a default notice as set out in Section 87(1).

UPDATE: the court confirms the original claim was made on the 14th March 2013.