Dispute over uninvoiced electricity.

[saltedhashed]

Some more developments. Firstly, I have had a bill from the energy supplier this morning which includes the amount they have put into Court as a brought forward and incorporates demands that I pay the lot. I was under the impression that making demands for payment of money which was already the subject of Court proceedings was not permitted and would probably be contempt. Anyone agree that is right or not?

I have now filed the acknowledgment of receipt for both claims.

While doing research for my defence I came across the PRE-ACTION PROTOCOL FOR DEBT CLAIMS which, if I read it correctly, should have been sent to me as part of the proceedure prior to the issue of proceedings and which I have not seen before. The relevant bit here is that my last letter to the claimant set out exactly what the problem was and why I believed I couldn't be required to pay the disputed part and also what they needed to do to put it right. I was expecting or at least hoping for an explanation of why they felt it was payable but never had a reply to that - it was sent by special delivery so signed for so they can't claim they didn't get it - which means they appear also to have not complied with the pre-action protocol.

Does anyone have any cogent advice about how I would go about working out the sort of sum I could get if I made a counterclaim for damages. The claimant has ruined the first 3 years of my retirement by failing to deal with this when it first arose. They are supposed to deal with complaints in 8 weeks - 30 months later I am still arguing about the same thing.

[echat11]

They should follow Pre Action Protocols, if you've disputed the amount owed, then they should hold fire in lodging a Claim with the Court. This is something for your Witness Statement, Your Defence should only deal with their Particulars of Claim. You should Counterclaim if you believe they are chasing you for money that you don't owe and they have 'harassed' you to get that money. You need to have evidence i.e. phone records, letters, emails etc. To build a case of harassment gather the evidence. But you need to nail down what is owed, if anything.

[saltedhashed]

I spoke with the Court by phone (about 40 minutes queuing on the phone) and (amongst other items) asked whether, if I had made a CPR 31-14 request for information which I need to assemble my defence, I could seek an extension of the deadline for filing the defence if the information I need had not been received. I was told in a very definite tone, that I would not get an extension. The person I spoke to also said that there was nothing to prevent me adding to the defence subsequently if further information became available.

One of the other points I raised was whether sending further demands for payment of the amount covered by the Court procedings by the claimant after the procedings had been issued was contempt of Court. The person I was speaking to disappeared for a few minutes to ask someone else - when they came back I was told that I should ignore the demand, (i.e. the demand for payment) which surprised me a little at the time. Afterwards I recalled that the Court itself cannot and does not give legal advice and I wondered whether that might have been the reason.

[echat11]

I spoke with the Court by phone (about 40 minutes queuing on the phone) and (amongst other items) asked whether, if I had made a CPR 31-14 request for information which I need to assemble my defence, I could seek an extension of the deadline for filing the defence if the information I need had not been received. I was told in a very definite tone, that I would not get an extension. The person I spoke to also said that there was nothing to prevent me adding to the defence subsequently if further information became available.

One of the other points I raised was whether sending further demands for payment of the amount covered by the Court procedings by the claimant after the procedings had been issued was contempt of Court. The person I was speaking to disappeared for a few minutes to ask someone else - when they came back I was told that I should ignore the demand, (i.e. the demand for payment) which surprised me a little at the time. Afterwards I recalled that the Court itself cannot and does not give legal advice and I wondered whether that might have been the reason.

Write / email the Claimant, asking if they would agree to extend the time period allowing you to file your defence once you've received the requested documentation under CPR 31.14, state that you are making this request under CPR 15.5.

There is no point in them making any demands after they've issued proceedings, as that's the 'ultimate recovery tool' at their disposal to get the 'alleged debt' paid. Keep a diary, if they persist, add it to your 'harassment' diary / evidence for your Witness Statement.

[saltedhashed]

Something which may be of interest is that I have discovered another problem with the claimants approach. These big companies are very prone to the creation of complicated group structures in which each piece of the structure has been created to achieve a specific objective. However, it is very easy for them to then become overwhelmed by the majesty of their own group structure, which is what I have discovered has happened here. The company which has taken me to Court for energy supplied over, say, 4 years, has actually only been my supplier for about 18 months or so up until about 9 months ago. When I looked into it carefully yesterday, on checking their invoices carefully, it turns out the supplier was a different company for the remainder of the period.

In my case, I would rather they all just paid some attention and got the original basic problem sorted out. I have had it all hanging over my head for four years. It should have been sorted years ago.

[PallasAthena]

Unfortunately that may not be significant because companies can, and often do, transfer debts owing to them to another company in the group or even sell them to an unconnected company external to the group. It's legal and doesn't need your consent.

Providing they do this the correct way - giving 'notice of assignment of debt' to its customers - the debt is then owed to the new company that received/bought the debt and can be enforced by them. The company acquiring the debt has no better rights to enforce the debt than the original company you were a customer of.

[echat11]

OFGEM issued licenses like 'confetti', there was literally no regard to a potential company's ability to manage
accounts and provide customer service. You could literally 'stumble' into OFGEM H / Q accidently and be awarded
a license to supply gas / electricity, they wanted to create competition. They clearly 'failed', but left the 'mess' you
and others find themselves in.

[saltedhashed]

Unfortunately that may not be significant because companies can, and often do, transfer debts owing to them to another company in the group or even sell them to an unconnected company external to the group. It's legal and doesn't need your consent.

Providing they do this the correct way - giving 'notice of assignment of debt' to its customers - the debt is then owed to the new company that received/bought the debt and can be enforced by them. The company acquiring the debt has no better rights to enforce the debt than the original company you were a customer of.

I accept that the transfer of debts is a perfectly normal commercial practice. What concerns me is the fact that statements, or indeed entire submissions, which are stated to be made 'under penalty of perjury' are simply untrue. The claim against me states that the claimant supplied energy - the fact is that someone else supplied energy so regardless of being signed on pain of perjury the statement is a lie. They did not supply energy - they just took over someone else's debt.

...but that is not the sole example. The first sentence of the Particulars of Claim is factually incorrect in so many ways that it is difficult to imagine that the solicitor who signed the thing off actually read any of it. Given that they know that I have already drawn the attention of the SRA to flaws in their workmanship, it does seem a strange way to proceed.

The lawyers who are dealing with the matter are a firm in Grimsby; their clients are in Bristol. My guess is that they have some sort of deal with the client along the lines of; they will deal with e.g.1,000 debt cases at 45 pence per case - this is pile 'em high/sell 'em cheap lawyering.

At another point in the correspondence the claimant was at pains to emphasise that they were 'totally separate' from the other group company and had no access to their records etc. It seems you are only part of a group when it is to your benefit and when it isn't, the other group members are nothing to do with you.

[saltedhashed]

The claim is for £7k-ish. They were served with a CPR31-14 request asking for production of documents - i.e. invoices making up the amount of £7k-ish as per their Particulars of Claim. After a long delay, they have produced copies of invoices amounting to about £650-ish. Additionally, the period covered by the invoices is not continuous so some are missing. I asked their lawyers whether there was more to come - they say that's all they've been given. None of the £650-ish is any part of the amount which is disputed.

I also sent an SAR request on 23/7/25 but have had no response to that whatever.

As regards the previous post - I don't think the essential point I was trying to make came out very well. The issue here is not that I perceive a problem with selling or transferring a debt intra-group or even selling the debt to an arms length purchaser. The problem is rather that there is no debt - the company which has taken me to Court has acquired the "debt" from the original company which went into administration via a third company which was SOLR for the first one and also a member of a group structure with the claimant. They have just acquired a list of debts - IMHO if they acquire debts without finding out what that debt is for, then they lack commercial common sense. The original company evidently never sent out invoices to me. Those invoices may well never have existed or if they did they were never delivered to me and evidently do not exist as no one seems able to produce either the documents themselves or any record of them whatever - e.g. dates of issue/date of supply/total invoiced amount etc etc.

I have also had a further two demands for payment in the post today from the claimant, one including threats to apply penalties for non-payment and/or to pass my details to a debt collection agency!

Having filed a defence, what am I expecting to happen next?

[echat11]

You need to give them the 30 days, then chase the SAR request.

https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/ge...happy-with-it/

The Court sends out a Directions Questionnaire, you'll get the opportunity of Mediation (outside of the Court process),
if not resolved, then the case proceeds to a Hearing.

https://legalbeagles.org/library/gui...questionnaire/

The Claimant is saying there is a debt outstanding. You need to show that you've asked for the evidence i.e. billing, that
they have failed to provide any evidence. That the billing doesn't reflect the amount claimed (even if the billing is correct).
You need to show the Judge you've gone down all the 'routes' available to you to get the information.

[saltedhashed]

Looking at the SAR, I'm wondering whether an SAR covers production of recordings of phone conversations?. I have always refused to agree to the recording of phone calls - when they ask routinely if I agree to the conversation being recorded, I say I will agree to their making a recording of the call provided that they give me a copy of the recording. That is always the deal breaker as they simply say no and end the call (actually with one exception - see below). It has been apparent that the company is totally intransigent as regards dealing with customer disputes and equally obvious that it is likely that the matter would end up in Court. I am a great believer in a level playing field in Court matters so I do not intend to put myself in a situation where they have access to a verbatim record of phone calls and I do not.

A subsidiary aspect of that is that the call itself is not on an equal footing as they choose when they call so they can read up the details beforehand and have it all fresh in their mind whereas customer may suddenly be called upon to discuss something they have not looked at or thought about in weeks while they are in the middle of worming the cat! No wonder the company try their hardest to get you to deal with them by phone.

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that they record everything - they don't just start recording once the customer has agreed to the call being recorded. There was one occasion where their agent continued speaking with me regardless of my objection to recording of the call. I know the date and the time of that call to within a few minutes. If it were recorded regardless of my objection, should I expect to find information about that in their response to my SAR?

[echat11]

Looking at the SAR, I'm wondering whether an SAR covers production of recordings of phone conversations?. I have always refused to agree to the recording of phone calls - when they ask routinely if I agree to the conversation being recorded, I say I will agree to their making a recording of the call provided that they give me a copy of the recording. That is always the deal breaker as they simply say no and end the call (actually with one exception - see below). It has been apparent that the company is totally intransigent as regards dealing with customer disputes and equally obvious that it is likely that the matter would end up in Court. I am a great believer in a level playing field in Court matters so I do not intend to put myself in a situation where they have access to a verbatim record of phone calls and I do not.

A subsidiary aspect of that is that the call itself is not on an equal footing as they choose when they call so they can read up the details beforehand and have it all fresh in their mind whereas customer may suddenly be called upon to discuss something they have not looked at or thought about in weeks while they are in the middle of worming the cat! No wonder the company try their hardest to get you to deal with them by phone.

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that they record everything - they don't just start recording once the customer has agreed to the call being recorded. There was one occasion where their agent continued speaking with me regardless of my objection to recording of the call. I know the date and the time of that call to within a few minutes. If it were recorded regardless of my objection, should I expect to find information about that in their response to my SAR?

You can request recordings in your SAR request.

There is no guarantee what they have or can send. They generally 'caveat' Recordings with the statement
that 'Recordings are made for training purposes'. Not all calls are Recorded. When you have a conversation
with them, they generally make summary notes on your account.

Don't be under the impression that the Courts are 'fair' or that they care about 'fairness'. The Courts / Judges
exist to process claims 'to the best of their ability', so if the Court / Judge is lacking in your case, that is what it is.

[saltedhashed]

Don't be under the impression that the Courts are 'fair' or that they care about 'fairness'. The Courts / Judges
exist to process claims 'to the best of their ability', so if the Court / Judge is lacking in your case, that is what it is.

That fits in with my experience in the area of law which I was involved with. It explains why you can appeal a decision if there is a disputed point of law but not on one of fact. The opinion of the judge on a question of fact is really down to common sense rather than specific knowledge whereas both sides are entitled to expect a Court decision to be a correct application of the law and it is not axiomatic that a judge in County Court knows everything about any law which he could come across. I assume that the same would apply to my case - i.e. if I dispute a point of law, I would be able to appeal?.

I have now, incidentally heard from the Court with the Directions Questionnaire which also transfers the case to my local County Court (this is because I have made a counter-claim). It also suggests that the matter should be dealt with through the small claims procedure. As the other side's legal representatives are based around 200 miles from my local County Court, if there needs to be a hearing, I'm guessing they will need to stay over at least one night if not two - that should enthral the claimants as they will not recover costs even if they win.

[unlucky jim]

very interesting,,, how did counter claim go,