Refusal of Refund

[fandabby]

Good afternoon


I purchased a T30 Van from a Garage (1 man ownership, he’s a mechanic and yard full of VW’s that he sells, on November 19^th for £13,995. This money was sent faster payments as this was his method was.


When we (me, my husband and our 4 young children) went to view the van, we both asked very specific questions about whether the van had any engine leaks, parts of engine which needed replacing, anything wrong with engine, running etc. We were told each time no it was a good working van. My husband took it for a drive around the block and said it drove fine. It was raining at the time and when he used the wipers they made a screeching sound. He asked about that and was told the motor needed oiling or it needed replacing, easy and cheap to do. So again he asked anything else wrong with the van. No was the response.

We purchased and my husband drove it back and I followed in our car.

I noticed lots of smoke coming out of exhaust when following him back. Then about 4 days later it took 3 turns of key to start. This each day on first engine turn over. Once it warmed you could start straight away. Still lots of smoke out of exhaust. I also noticed tyres looked worn. I took van to Tyre shop and they informed me three needed changing as were at legal limits. Lovely, already spending money. When they looked the one alloy was cracked which was dangerous for driving. I had to purchase 4 wheels and 4 tyres to drive van away. Whilst they had van I asked the to check underneath to see if everything looked ok. Was told upon collection, engine leak and passenger CV boot needed replacing. They also had to cut the second skin off the exhaust as it was dragging on floor. Also when driving the one sliding window in the sliding door would open on it’s own. When I checked you can open from outside so the latch on inside is not working/broken.

I telephoned the Proprietor on the Tuesday 22^nd Nov to initially tell him about the window not securing properly, the smoke out of exhaust and moaned about having to pay for 4 wheels and tyres. He said he would take van and look at smoking and try and fix window.

I said there would be a delay because we were due to move that coming weekend and didn’t have the time to drive back to him in Wales (1.5 hrs). He said he would reserve himself to look at van w/c December.

In the meantime I discovered other faults through the next days, engine not starting until 3-4 turns of key, sluggish and jumping, engine fan kept kicking in and no air con was running, this fan would run even from first starting engine and brakes didn’t feel right. We took the decision to reject the vehicle and request a refund as more and more faults were showing themselves. This done 1 week after purchase.

I wrote to him via Ebay (he has classified ads on here) and requested a refund due to more problems arising with the van. I stated under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 I can reject and request refund under 30 days.

He wrote back by letter and suggested I was scamming him and that I had damaged the van. Pardon me I think other way around.

So this is where letters were being sent.

I arranged for a Dekra Engineer to come and inspect the van and write a report. Not good and he said it should not have been sold to me in that condition, dangerous vehicle. The conclusion of report:

“
The poor starting/starter motor condition is progressive mechanical wear and tear, together with the excessive plumes of exhaust smoke which, in the opinion of the engineer, is indicative of excessive internal turbo wear and internal engine wear. The heavy oil soiling to the oil filler neck suggests that previous frequent oil top ups have been necessary indicating excessive oil usage.


In the opinion of the engineer, all above defects were present at point of sale, together with the missing right front brake caliper clip, split left front outer driveshaft gaiter and the cracked right front alloy road wheel, due to the dirt ingress to the cracked area.


The vehicle in its present state is not fit for purpose and is in a dangerous condition.
“

We sent another letter to include report and again request refund.

He is still stating no refund, will collect vehicle and repair if necessary and leave a courtesy vehicle. He said that he has sought legal advice and this is more than acceptable for age and mileage of vehicle and he does not have to refund. The van is 2007 on £140K and cost £13,995. At point of purchase my husband and I continually asked him is there anything wrong with vehicle as we have been burnt before, leaks, engine problems, running etc – he repeatedly told us that it was a great vehicle with no problems other than the screechy motor on wipers.

I contacted Citizen Advice and they said I can reject and request refund under 30 days – which we did week after purchase.

We sent another letter stating that if he still refuses to refund he leaves us no choice but to take him to court. This had no effect and he is still not prepared to refund us.

We do not trust him to repair the vehicle since he sold it in this state to start with, which is why we want the refund. How can we trust him to fix everything genuinely, there is a lot wrong with it.

1. So what I need to know is can I request refund and not accept his offer of repair?
2. The letters and report we have sent him (lettered him 6 times for refund request) – will this be sufficient evidence that we have tried to gain refund?
3. Faster payments with his name as reference – is this sufficient as proof of purchase? He only gave me the V5/2 slip. The van is in my name as do have the V5 logbook now.
4. Any information or advice about proceeding to court?
5. Can I also claim my losses – tax, insurance along with legal fees which I have to pay to take him to court?
6. Is my only option to get it fixed and trust that he does it genuinely?

Any advice/information gratefully received.

Many thanks

[ostell]

Re: Refusal of Refund

No, since you first complained within 30 days you have the right to reject and get a refund within 14 days, AND claim your expenses from him.

Here is the Consumer Rights Act, It's quite reasonable to read. First decide the reason for rejecting, not merchantable quality, not as described etc then you will have to make a claim against him. Unfortunately the sum is too large for small claims court.

In a recent case I was helping with the trader kept insisting that he had the right to make an attempt to repair but this was because he was referring to the Sale of Goods Act and di not know about the CRA. Have you told him you will be making a claim against him using the CRA, to to make sure he knows about the change?

[fandabby]

Re: Refusal of Refund

Thanks for replying.

We stated in several of our letters that under the Consumer Rights Act we have up to 30 days to reject and refund. We also said that we will pursue him through the court should he still refuse to refund.

His last letter to us he said he had his own legal advice and his offer of repair to acceptable due to the age and mileage of the van.

So for us to take him to court I send him one final letter - 'letter to action' - which the CAB told me to do, then if he still says no file a court claim.

Do we need to hire a Solicitor for the court case? Not been in this situation before.

The fees we need to pay which I believe is 5% of claim we need to pay upfront. Other than that and Solicitor fees, what other fees do we need to consider? Is all of this claimable as part of the court claim against him?

Many thanks

[R0b]

Re: Refusal of Refund

quite an expensive buy for a vehicle of that age and the mileage on it, or am I just being naive?

Anyway, you've rejected the van and written several times so it sounds like he is calling your bluff. If you want to hire a solicitor then you could do but you'll be paying them too and you might want to get a fixed fee for it as they may try to overcharge you for something so simple. Alternatively you can go it alone, its a case of rejecting the car and you have a report which confirms the poor state of t but also potentially a misrepresentation too for giving false information.

Your not obliged to let him repair it since you have exercised your right to a refund. Equally that does not mean you continue using the van as if you do then you are likely to cause further issues with your claim if you have contributed to the problem knowing the state it is in.

Bear in mind the amount is over £10k so if he does instruct a solicitor then you could be liable for costs if you lose but that doesn't stop you from kicking things off yourself and then Instructing a solicitor at a later stage. You also need to be aware of the cost of issuing the claim which is 4.5% of the amoun your are claiming t if you do it online or 5% if you go direct to the court.

[fandabby]

Re: Refusal of Refund

The van has not been driven since we rejected the vehicle with the exception of driving it to Tyre shop to get original alloys/tyres put back on.

We will send him his final letter to action and see if that spurs him on for refund. If not then we will have to put a claim in.

When we put the amount to claim, can I include:, cost of vehicle, insurance paid to date, tax for months in ownership, the 4 wheels/tyres, Dekra report, court filing cost and what about future solicitor fees if needed or are court and legals costs automatically added to the claim?

Thank you, this is really helpful.

[fandabby]

Re: Refusal of Refund

Hello everyone, so we discussed (me and my husband) and now is the time to get this sorted with the courts.

Here is a letter I have put together for letter before action. Can you please let me know if I have written it correctly, thank you..... should I alter it in any way ??

"
Letter Before Court Claim

This is now our 7^th communication by writing to you with regard to us rejecting and requesting a refund for the above vehicle sold to us by you. We rejected and requested refund 26 November 2016, one week following purchase. The request for refund is repeatedly denied by you.

I am confused as to why you would think you can simply offer a solution of collection of vehicle, leaving a courtesy, investigating and fixing if necessary. Are you confusing yourself and making reference to the Sale of Goods Act?

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 supersedes the Sale of Goods Act, please refer to

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ion/20/enacted

Under this new act we are not obliged to let you repair it since we have exercised our right to a refund.
We have sent you the Dekra report, 12 December 2016, which is Independent and this report is legally binding in the court of law. To refresh your memory the conclusion of the report:


“
The poor starting/starter motor condition is progressive mechanical wear and tear, together with the excessive plumes of exhaust smoke which, in the opinion of the engineer, is indicative of excessive internal turbo wear and internal engine wear. The heavy oil soiling to the oil filler neck suggests that previous frequent oil top ups have been necessary indicating excessive oil usage.

In the opinion of the engineer, all above defects were present at point of sale, together with the missing right front brake caliper clip, split left front outer driveshaft gaiter and the cracked right front alloy road wheel, due to the dirt ingress to the cracked area.

The vehicle in its present state is not fit for purpose and is in a dangerous condition.
“

As I have stated in previous letters, we drove the vehicle, changing the wheels and tyres early on due to tyres being on legal limits and cracked alloy and once we rejected the vehicle for refund the van was not driven with the exception of taking the van back to the Tyre shop to get the original wheels/tyres put back on and then driven to our new home. I mentioned previously the miles driven I stated 555.1 from point of purchase. The mileage getting van wheels/tyres back on and to our new address it is now sitting on 562.1

Again to refresh your memory both my husband and I asked repeatedly are there any oil leaks, engine problems, how does the van run, what is wrong with the van. We also explained to you we had been burnt before with having a vehicle sold to us with lots of faults and didn’t want that experience again. You said more than once that the van is a good condition and no leaks and nothing needs doing with the exception of the motor for the windscreen wiper as this was screeching when in use.

I am aware in your first letter that you suggested we had caused the faults, we have only had this vehicle for a limited time before rejecting where the van was parked up and only added 562.1 in total to the mileage. There is no way that these faults appeared from our use. The Engineer has confirmed in his professional opinion all faults were present at point of purchase. I did telephone you shortly after purchase already detailing the faults which were visible and then went onto rejecting the vehicle when more faults were showing themselves that same week. Not something that will happen in days of ownership.

In my previous letter, 9 January 2017, I mention the routes we could take, one being Alternative dispute resolution through a trade association. I said that I had checked the various associations and cannot find you are a member. You have not come forward with Alternative Dispute Resolution to resolve this problem. To avoid taking court action which takes up time and costs money, I am willing to use Alternative Dispute Resolution to resolve this problem but please realise our stance has always and will be that we have rejected the vehicle and requested and are still requesting full refund including expenses and losses. This was instigated one week after purchase, all in writing, well within our 30 day window under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

If we do not receive our full refund we will pursue you through the county court to recover our money in full including all expenses and losses resulting from this purchase. We have tried to limit the cost by trying to get the refund from you without delay, however, you continually deny our refund which is not acceptable to us.


Aside from the fact this vehicle was sold to us in an unfit condition and is classed as dangerous from a safety aspect there is also in question:

• potentially a misrepresentation for giving false information.
  and
• By selling a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition you are in breach of Road Traffic Act 1988 Sec 75.
  This is a criminal offence and should be reported.
  Please refer to http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/contents

If you do not recover the vehicle – it cannot be driven as it is unfit and dangerous – and give me a full refund within 14 days of this letter, more than reasonable since I have been requesting refund since 26^th November 2016, I will take you to Court to recover my money including any additional losses I incur under the Consumer Rights Act and possibly the extra two points I mention above.

You already have my bank details and all receipts of my expenses/losses.
To recap and bearing in mind another month has now passed which increases our losses.

Monies to be refunded which we have lost due to being sold a poor conditioned van not fit for purpose and in a dangerous condition:

Vehicle @ £13,995
Inspection Report @ £199
Wheels and tyres we had to put on (you have this invoice already). @ £576
Cost to put original wheels and tyres back on @ £10
Tax for November, December & January @ £230 for year – 3 months @ approximately £57.50
(If this is not refunded before end of January where I can cancel the tax then please add another month and adjust using figure £76.67)
Insurance cancellation fee @ £59
Insurance cost @ £439 for year – 3 months @ approximately £109.75
(Again depending on when you intend to refund, if we fall into February then this will need to be adjusted)

Total £15,006.25
Or with additional tax £15,025.42.

We want all money we have lost refunded please and after seeking advice we are in our rights to request this since we were sold a vehicle not fit for purpose. However should you not want to refund the wheels/tyres we will keep those which will leave a refund for £14,430.25 or £14,449.42 with one month extra tax. Should you include £576 then we will place them in the back of the van.

You already have a second copy of Dekra Report, Insurance Fee, Tax Fee, Receipt for 4 x wheels/tyres, Receipt for putting Original Wheels/Tyres back on £10 and one copy of
Email receipt from Dekra £199.
Please acknowledge receipt of this letter and when you intend to collect the vehicle and make the refund. I want faster payments please which is how I paid you and monies to be refunded before vehicle is collected. Please ensure you sign your letter as previous letters from you have not been signed.

For clarification if I do not receive a satisfactory response from you within 14 days of the date of this letter, I intend to issue proceedings against you in the county court without further notice. This may increase your liability for costs.

I also refer you to the Practice Direction on pre-action conduct under the Civil Procedure Rules that we both parties need to follow.

This vehicle was purchased to transport our four children around and to also enjoy family time at weekends. We have not had access to this vehicle now for well over a month and without the refund are unable to replace the vehicle. I trust you have all the information here now to make your decision on how you want to pursue with this matter, and we hope that you realise this was mis-sold and you honour our request for full refund under Consumer Rights Act 2015.
We will look forward to hearing from you shortly.

Yours faithfully

"

Appreciate any feedback, thanks.

Need to get this sorted as it's dragging on now and we bought this vehicle specifically for me and kids (4) to get about and then family time at weekends.

Many thanks

[fandabby]

Re: Refusal of Refund

UPDATE

I sent letter and day 16 nothing as a reply. Checked tracking and signed for 27th so I know the letter got there. I did also include in the letter the breakdown of faults that we found within days.

So now I need to complete the N1 form.

A few questions please if someone can help me out:

1. When I put amount I am claiming for can I include what I detailed in the letter:

Vehicle @ £13,995
Inspection Report @ £199
Wheels and tyres we had to put on (you have this invoice already). @ £576
Cost to put original wheels and tyres back on @ £10
Tax for November, December & January @ £230 for year – 3 months @ approximately £57.50
(If this is not refunded before end of January where I can cancel the tax then please add another month and adjust using figure £76.67)
Insurance cancellation fee @ £59
Insurance cost @ £439 for year – 3 months @ approximately £109.75
(Again depending on when you intend to refund, if we fall into February then this will need to be adjusted)



2. Can I claim interest? I read on line the Statutory interest is 8%. How do I apply this and should I apply it?

3. The court fee 4.5% I will do online, will this be added to the claim if I win or do I lose this forever?

4. If I spoke with a local solicitor they charge £50 for first half hour and then £250+Vat Thereafter hourly. If I needed a solicitor to get this form filled in right, can I also claim that back and if so how, is it part of the claim or is it added on a win basis?

Any advice I can receive please will be gratefully received.

I was hoping my letter before action would have resulted in refund but it has not. He is obviously burying his head in the sand now. Can do without all this hassle and I need a decent car/van to get us around as bought a cheapy 500 quid car (all we could afford) and now fixing that up to keep it on road whilst this van is sitting for more than 2 months now sorting this whole thing out.

Thanks in advance.