Credit Card Agreements

[Amethyst]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

* There is also a very comprehensive copy of the terms of the Agreement with what looks like all the information needed such as interest rates, key information, etc (NOT SIGNED BY ANYONE)

If the APr etc are not on the main agreement then the T&C's seperate that form a part of the agreement should also be signed.

Who is this one from ?

Which other ones have you written off for ? (ie. lets look at your overall debt and see what action you can take besides sitting with your fingers crossed an agreement might not be enforceable)

[jax007]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

I found this if it's any help to anyone (probably already been seen, methinks).

Herewith anyway

http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file42398.pdf

[jax007]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

Morning Ame

I am not going to bombard you with any more of these just now as I have given you info on 3 of my cards with differing degrees of documentation and don't want to confuse things.

Between my husband and myself we have about 15 CCs. I have already gone down the debt management route with national debt line but because I am just recently self-employed they can't do anything until I get my tax liability sorted out - then I can go back to them to sort out a payment plan.

The issue of the CCAs and finding out whether they are enforceable is an extra tool I am using in the meantime - not the only tool.

My husband's card is Bank of Scotland. We have received ....

* Completed signed Application (like the ones I have uploaded to you on the other 2)
* There is a statement above the signature box that it is a Credit Agreement
* This form is signed by both my husband AND the creditor
* The separate Agreement is headed Credit Card Agreement Regulated by ..... etc
* Underneath that heading is a statement ... This is a copy of your Agreement for you to keep. It includes a notice about cancellation ..... etc
* The content of this separate Agreement includes key financial information, APRs, (all the information required I believe) and also within the Agreement are the General Credit Card Conditions (so, no, they are not separate)

So to all intents and purposes this is a properly executed and enforceable agreement - to my mind anyway. If so I can put this one to bed.

Thanx Ame
jax

[Amethyst]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

Cool - thanks for that info I prefer to try find out where peeps are coming from - makes it a lot simpler to help with a full overview of the situation.

Suggest you have a read of this thread. Consumer Credit Agreements - A Guide - Legal Beagles should help see which way things can go.And we'll continue to look at the agreements you have posted up.


And bombard away !


the bank of Scotland one does sound pretty kosher to me.

[jax007]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

Thanx Ame - I picked this up from the other link ................

Now you may notice that there is no mention of signatures here.
Yes without both, yours and theirs, the agreement isn't properly executed.
This can be rectified by court action, assuming the terms are all present.

So I guess that even if the CREDITOR has NOT SIGNED the agreement rendering it unenforceable, they can easily get round that by a court order. So you're pretty well stuffed if that's the case, eh?!

So just to recap on my original two cards:

M&S have only sent application form, signed by me only and nothing else.
Action: write back to them and say they have failed to supply me with what I asked for and they are therefore in default? YES or NO

MINT have supplied me with Application Form, signed by me only but also a copy of the original Credit Agreement and a copy of the Credit Agreement as at my last statement. So from that point of view it all looks complete apart from the lack of THEIR signature.
Action: Wait until you have a reply back from someone whether this is enforceable or not.

Obviously IF these 'agreements' are NOT enforceable due to lack of signatures on creditors part (which looks like this is going be the only reason I have), then I can write to them and tell them so and hope they don't get a court order to rectify it?????

Thanx again Ame - you are doing wonders in keeping me calm hun!!

And I'm really sorry to take up so much of your valuable time.

jax

[Amethyst]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

If you keep apologising I'll stop helping you :kiss:

Lack of creditors signature really is the flimsiest excuse to say their agreements are unenforceable - sorry. Its simply rectified by them signing the original and saying they had balnked it out in copy they sent you for security or some such tosh. Really I wouldnt push any of these to court on iredeemable unenforcability unless there were major errors on the CCA.

You have arrangements and a DMP being set up at the moment - so you don't want to push any of the creditors into going for court action and thus CCJs and hassle without a very strong reason.

Your accounts seem to be still held by the original creditors still and not been passed on to DCAs so to be honest an I/E and offer for repayment, request to freeze interest etc would serve you a lot better as things stand.

you don't need to use national debt line either- you can do it yourself, or try CCCS.


If you really want to sort these cards/debt out then a list of all your current balances on each card, your I/E sheet, and a look at any charges etc placed on each account would be a lot more productive for the moment, at least while you await the CCAs to come in.

We can then work out letters to send to each, having the CCas will help with those too, and if theres anything we can use to push them round to your way of thinking all the better.


I know it sounds a bit like I'm avoiding the CCA subject for you but I do think you need to deal with the problem as a whole. You don't want stuff to be sold/agented out to DCAs if you can help it.

[Curlyben]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

As Ame has already mentioned, and you did yourself, time to get EVERYTHING together and sort out a DMP.
CCCS or Payplan would be a well recognised route for this.
Do you have any idea on the amount of charges and can you offer any F&F's especially on the M&S card ?

[jax007]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

Sorry - won't apologize any more!!

thanx guys - so looks like the lack of signature which is probably only reason just now is not going to be a valid one (although I have to say on the MINT form there is no provision for the creditor's signature anyway).

Curlyben is suggesting offering an F&F on M&S especially - is this because of the lack of signature on the form or because they have not complied with the full CCA request and just sent me the Application/Agreement form? On what basis would I offer F&F?

As far as F&Fs are concerned on all the cards, yes I may well be in a position to do that in the next few weeks or so. If so, how much would I offer - or more to the point at what % would I start the negotiations? I quite favour 10%!!

Ame - I wasn't advocating going to court on these lacks of signatures rather acknowledging the creditor could to go to court to have it added. Am merely using it as a possible 'weapon' and perhaps writing and stating that "...... because the agreement has not been signed by the creditor it is not a fully executable agreement and thus renders the agreement unenforceable, and on the basis that if the terms are unenforceable then interest cannot be charged therefore I would like to offer an F&F" or something to that effect. I am just wondering this is worth a try or not?? What do you say?

I do realize they may or may not threaten to take it to court, but just wonder whether it could be used in bargaining an F&F?

God - I'm jumping all over the place here!

jax

[jax007]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

OOPS!! Forgot to say that I am in process of claiming back charges on these cards too - I suppose I could always say I will drop the claims if they settle on an F&F??

Your thoughts??

jax

[Curlyben]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

In a nut shell M&S's agreement would make a good paper airplane, but as an agreement it's rubbish, but as it is still with the OC the game changes.
As for your F&F, you will have to start alot higher than 10% as it is still with the OC, if it where with a DCA it would be a different matter as they pay peanuts for debts.

As for the Mint agreement, they tend to be fully enforceable and as such you need to make arrangements.
I would send a Dispute Notice to Triton telling them you are disputing the balance with Mint due to charges.

[jax007]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

Thanks CB

Just to clarify - as far as MINT is concerned I will use one of your dispute templates that are on another thread? Right? Also when time comes to offer an F&F I can offer something like 10%??

M&S - not too sure what you are saying here. Why is it a different game if still with OC and not DCA? And if the agreement is rubbish, why can't I use it as an unenforceable agreement? Sorry about the questions only I'm quite understanding this particular issue?

[jax007]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

Thanks CB

Just to clarify - as far as MINT is concerned should I use one of your dispute templates that are on another thread? Also when time comes to offer an F&F could I offer something like 10% to Triton??

M&S - not too sure what you are saying here. Why is it a different game if still with OC and not DCA? And if the agreement is rubbish, why can't I use it as an unenforceable agreement? Sorry about the questions only I'm quite understanding the issue on this particular card. Would you mind explaining (idiot-proof) exactly what you mean on the M&S front please?

jax

[excel1]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

Curlyben you say as its still eith the OC the game changes, is that legally or morally?(sorry if you have already explained somewhere else!)

[Curlyben]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

Legally the game is the same, but as it's with the OC they should be more open for a F&F settlement.

[jax007]

Re: Credit Card Agreements

Hello Curlyben

Am back in UK now and ready to step up a gear with these CCAs, etc

MINT - I have read some of the letters you have posted re contacting the DCAs regards the debt. I am about to write to DCA and am just wondering which letter to send.

The 'Prove I'm the Debtor' letter I assume would not apply as I know I owe the money to the CC so I would assume I would send 'FULL CCA' letter stating I don't owe debt to DCA?

Please can you confirm this either way?

Also I told them today that the debt is in dispute because of the charges and they are being all arsy about it

Therefore, I am going to write to CC and resurrect this dispute.

The DCA did say that even if the account was found to be in dispute it would be doubtful the CC would take the account back.

Any further guidance here would be much appreciated.

Many thanx
jax