Alcohol.

[geoffrey]

Two youth leaders gave a small glass of alcoholic wine to a group of English teenagers with their dinner each day when travelling on the continent. This was perfectly legal in the countries concerned but one of the parents question the legality of it. However, surely the law applicable is the law of the country that it happened in and not the law of the country where the teenagers come from.

[Wombats]

Re: Alcohol.

If unlawful in this country and they knew they'd be doing it, it was a foolish oversight by the youth leaders not to mention it in pre-trip talks. Also, while away, the leaderswere 'in loco parentis' so should be acting as the parents would wish them to act.

They may not have broken any laws in the countries they visited, but they may have some explaining to do now they are back at home.

Is this a real case or a fictional scenario?

[Amethyst]

Re: Alcohol.

I always thought it was legal (in this country) for 14 yr olds plus to have an alcoholic beverage with a meal when dining out with parents (or those acting in loco parentus ) but not sure now as had a bit of a disagreement in a restaurant a few weeks back for daughters birthday and I'd said the girls ,14 and 15, could have a glass of wine, so be interested to know what the actual position is there.

If the girls went on youth trips etc I would expect to be asked if I gave permission for them to be allowed to have alcohol if it was intended and to have the option to say no.

[Wombats]

Re: Alcohol.

I thought it was 16! I'll have a little search around.

Yep, 16 as long as in an area set apart for meals and the children are accompanied by someone aged over 18.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/...nd_smoking.htm

https://www.gov.uk/alcohol-young-people-law

[Amethyst]

Re: Alcohol.

Ahhh maybe it used to be 14, or maybe I've just lived under that misapprehension since I was 14 lol.

[Wombats]

Re: Alcohol.

Ahhh maybe it used to be 14, or maybe I've just lived under that misapprehension since I was 14 lol.

I had the same misapprehension I think!

[wales01man]

Re: Alcohol.

I think they were wrong and the parents are right to complain.
saying it was OK under the law of the country they were in is not an excuse in some countries the age of consent is lower than ours what would they allow there.

I believe that youngsters should ne introduced to alcohol before 18 may stop some of the problems later but only under supervision of their parents I would expect this leader to behave better whilst looking after children I would be mad if it had been my boys or even grandsons there.

[des8]

Re: Alcohol.

It would be interesting to know the age of the teenager in question, but presumably under 18.
If it was legal in the country in which the students were travelling no offence has been committed.
Presumably the parents were aware their child was travelling to a country were wine was routinely drunk, so why did they not ask the teachers to ensure their child did not partake?
Under the Children Act 1989 teachers must act as any reasonable parent in promoting welfare and safety of children in their care,The more modern approach is not to use the phrase "in loco parentis" but to refer to "the duty of care". I believe most people would accept a gradual supervised introduction to alcohol is reasonable.

[Wombats]

Re: Alcohol.

It would be interesting to know the age of the teenager in question, but presumably under 18.
If it was legal in the country in which the students were travelling no offence has been committed.
Presumably the parents were aware their child was travelling to a country were wine was routinely drunk, so why did they not ask the teachers to ensure their child did not partake?
Under the Children Act 1989 teachers must act as any reasonable parent in promoting welfare and safety of children in their care,The more modern approach is not to use the phrase "in loco parentis" but to refer to "the duty of care". I believe most people would accept a gradual supervised introduction to alcohol is reasonable.

Unusually I disagree with you. I think the onus is the other way round -ie- rather than it be for the parents to ask the leaders NOT to allow consumption of alcohol, I think the man on the Clapham Omnibus would think the leaders should have asked the parents for persmission TO ALLOW consumption of alcohol.

I agree most people would accept a gradual supervised introduction to alcohol is not only reasonable but highly appropriate; however, I think if staff are going to do this, it should be with the parents' knowledge.

[Amethyst]

Re: Alcohol.

When I was 15 I went on one of those PGL holidays, to Amsterdam, on a boat trip . What were my parents thinking ?!?!. There was lots of drinking and naughty stuff going on WITH the youth leaders ( who were very early 20's). I had a ball ! I think (hope) rules have been tightened up since then. We all survived and got back home safe enough, little bit more wordly wise though.


PGL 'FAQ's' on Alcohol

Alcohol:
Consumption of alcohol by guests is banned at all PGL centres in the UK and France. In France and Austria, please note that even those guests who are 16 and over who legally speaking may consume beer and wine in Europe, are subject to this ban. This also applies to the consumption of alcohol off-site and the purchase of alcohol offsite. Please note that guests who break this rule will be excluded from the holiday and collection will be at the expense of parents/guardians.

[des8]

Re: Alcohol.

Unusually I disagree with you. I think the onus is the other way round -ie- rather than it be for the parents to ask the leaders NOT to allow consumption of alcohol, I think the man on the Clapham Omnibus would think the leaders should have asked the parents for persmission TO ALLOW consumption of alcohol.

I agree most people would accept a gradual supervised introduction to alcohol is not only reasonable but highly appropriate; however, I think if staff are going to do this, it should be with the parents' knowledge.

Thank goodness for disagreements as that way we have a debate and can share opposing views.

If we were to conduct a poll about this, I wonder what the result would be!
I suppose what one thinks of as reasonable fulfilment of duty of care will depend to an extent on how one was brought up.
I was at boarding school, so all decisions were left during term time to the school, who certainly didn't refer to my parents except to ask for the fees & send the yearly report.
Again since then times have changed (thank goodness) but it does seem to me that often a person makes what they think is a reasonable decision, only to be attacked for it later.
In this case no law has been broken, and (depending on the age of the teenager) I just cannot see what the problem is.
In the UK it is legal for children between the age of 5 and 16 to drink alcohol on private premises, between 16 & 18 drink beer/wine in licensed premises with a meal.
I feel that a teacher supervising young people (i'm guessing at 16/17 year olds) would not be breaching his duty of care allowing them to drink a small quantity of wine with a meal if abroad. If the parents are teetotal, or have religious objections to the drinking of alcohol, they should make this clear to the supervisors before departure. If the parents have religious objections to their children eating, for example, pork, they are expected to tell the supervisors.Why not the same with alcohol?Why reverse the onus?

[Wombats]

Re: Alcohol.

My upbringing was similar - boarding school from the age of eight. I think my view on this stems more from having been a Headteacher though. If we ran residential trips, we held meetings with the parents where we set out what we were going to do (as far as reasonably foreseeable) and they had every opportunity to question us. Obviously they then had the right to withdraw children from certain things, or tell us specific information we may need to know.

When we did sex education we had to write to all the parents telling them what we were going to cover, the series of viedos as they were then we were going to show, and parents again had the right to some in, view the videos and if they wished to, withdraw their child from that session / those sessions.

I come from the educational background professionally of telling them and giving them the right to withdraw. Given this is in a similar field as an educational trip, I would expect the onus to be with the organisation.

Say I was teatotal (I am as it happens) but didn't know the law of the country to which my child was going, surely I couldn't be expected to research their legislation on the offchance I might disagree with something; it is much more realistic in my opinion, for the organisation to make me aware of things I might want/need to know so I could have my say.

For what it's worth, I actually think it's absolutely right for children to be brought up being allowed sensible and age appropriate amounts of alcohol - we've taken that approach with our 17 year old daughter and she is pretty responsible as far as drink goes.

[des8]

Re: Alcohol.

So we come to the problem (?) from slightly different angles..... like opposing!

AS a parent I placed my children in the care of teachers and expected them to care and supervise them as if they were their own. If there were special requirements I assumed it was my responsibility to ensure the organisation knew. If I did not want them to participate in something that was lawful, it was up to me to withdraw the child. I would not expect the organisation to tell me e.g. that in France children drank wine, especially as they can in the UK anyway.

It seems that now my position is somewhat old fashioned, and that those in loco parentis dare not make a decision independently, but must refer every minor decision to the parents!

[Wombats]

Re: Alcohol.

Who knows Des? I stopped 12 years ago and am glad to have escaped to be honest; I don't really have to worry about these things other than in amicable debates on here. I may be out of date.

One thing is for sure, 16/17 year olds will be given free time to explore towns and cities unsupervised. I suspect they will continue to do much the same things as we did during such times, and that may well include sipping a little vino or whatever. I'm sure there's plenty they get up to that both parents and supervisors are better off not knowing!

[des8]

Re: Alcohol.

hear! hear! and it was ever so.