Any advice ?

[Takethis]

Hi
I have used this forum before to find help with a separate problem and have found the help and advice given excellent. I do not know what would have done without you ! However this matter is something different and wondered if anybody would be able to help ? This is my problem I have had this problem for quite a while now and nobody seems to want to help, or has given me solid advice. I have even been in touch with the financial ombudsman, all to no avail.Our problem started when my husband came out of work, he had been working as a joiner and we had received tax credits, everything was fine at this point. However when he came out of work he went to DWP to claim JSA when he was there he filled in all the forms etc, the adviser asked what his income was at that precise moment in time, which was only Working tax and Child tax (no wages as he had finished work) the advisor told him that as he was already receiving WT they would only pay us £13.00 per week and the £80.00 WT would make up the required amount to live on by law, this continued to be our income for the next few months.
However when he went back into work and tried to claim WT again they said they had overpaid us by approx. £2.100 yet when we explained we had only been receiving £13.00 from JSA they said there was nothing they could to about, and we are still paying it back to this day.
You see DWP had underpaid us by £80.00 per week and WT has overpaid us by £80.00 per week. So in retrospect DWP owe WT not us but we are having to pay this amount of money. I have wrote numerous letters yet nobody will help us. This amount of money is such a lot. If you could give me any advice. I would be extremely grateful. I wrote to dwp when this happened and this is what they replied with

When you claimed JSA in March 2011, you were in receipt of WTC of 88.94 per week, which was taken into account as income against your personal allowance rate of 102.75
As WTC continued to be paid until 9/9/2011, this continued to be treated as income received when assessing your JSA entitlement
Taking the guidance and legislation into I can confirm no arrears of JSA will be due to you for the period.
As you state you informed WTC that you had finished work, yet continued to recieve WTC, it was your responsibility to check with HMRC whether this was correct.
It is always the responsibility of the claimant to report a change in circumstances to the relevant department,on time, and to check any subsequent communications from that department to alert them of any possible discrepancies.


This letter was received on 13/3/13 and after this we have just reached a deadend and do not know what way to turn. Nobody seems to know what to do. Your advice is welcome and greatly appreciated.
I am wondering whether a solicitor would be able to help ? but this has been going on for so long and I no longer know what to do. The last letter I wrote was in Sept 14 and I did not even receive a reply. Do you think it has been so long that I can longer do anything ? I had given up hope that anything could be done, but after discovering this forum, i am hoping someone can help. I have been told to seek advice from a solicitor, but cannot afford any fees. Thanks for taking the time to read this. If I haven't explained the situation very well, please feel free to ask questions.....

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Any advice ?

Try not to worry. Who is chasing you for tax credits? HMRC themselves or have they unleashed a DCA?

I've been chased for an alleged tax credits overpayment dating back to 2010/2011 (the only time I claimed) since 2012. Had a number of DCAs chasing me. I told HMRC that I'd be happy to set up a repayment plan if they told me how they arrived at the figure, a statement, a breakdown, etc. but they took ages to respond and when they did, there was no statement or breakdown so I didn't pay.

Just over a year ago I started a thread about that but it's in VIP, there isn't much to say other than I've not heard from anyone about this for several months now. At the time, one ex-LB member kindly posted a link to this page :yo: : https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-appea...s/complaints#1 I sent a copy of the complaint to the DCA who gave up the ghost after that, later to be replaced by 2 others. TBH I never took much notice of the other 2 DCAs and they just went away. I'd say there's no reason to say it's been so long and you can't do anything, send in your complaint explaining that the amount was taken off your JSA, have you still got your JSA awards letters?

[Takethis]

Re: Any advice ?

Try not to worry. Who is chasing you for tax credits? HMRC themselves or have they unleashed a DCA?

I've been chased for an alleged tax credits overpayment dating back to 2010/2011 (the only time I claimed) since 2012. Had a number of DCAs chasing me. I told HMRC that I'd be happy to set up a repayment plan if they told me how they arrived at the figure, a statement, a breakdown, etc. but they took ages to respond and when they did, there was no statement or breakdown so I didn't pay.

Just over a year ago I started a thread about that but it's in VIP, there isn't much to say other than I've not heard from anyone about this for several months now. At the time, one ex-LB member kindly posted a link to this page :yo: : https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-appea...s/complaints#1 I sent a copy of the complaint to the DCA who gave up the ghost after that, later to be replaced by 2 others. TBH I never took much notice of the other 2 DCAs and they just went away. I'd say there's no reason to say it's been so long and you can't do anything, send in your complaint explaining that the amount was taken off your JSA, have you still got your JSA awards letters?

Hi
They are already stopping the £2000+ out of my awards, but you see I don't really owe the money as I was underpaid by JSA for all that time. So in affect we lived off £13 for a number of months and HMRC are correct in saying we owe the money because they did overpay us but JSA underpaid us. So my dispute is with dwp but they will not admit to owing us the money ( as the letter states above ) but we were overpaid by HMRC and are paying that back still, but DWP underpaid us. Sorry I might not be explaining this very well, but do you see what I mean ?

[des8]

Re: Any advice ?

Hi
this is what they replied with
As you state you informed WTC that you had finished work, yet continued to recieve WTC, it was your responsibility to check with HMRC whether this was correct.
It is always the responsibility of the claimant to report a change in circumstances to the relevant department,on time, and to check any subsequent communications from that department to alert them of any possible discrepancies.

Go back and ask them what legislation makes it your responsibility to check they have done their job properly.

It was my understanding that HMRC have 30 days in which to implement changes following notification.
If they take longer than this they should not ask you to repay any overpayment which builds up after the 30 days (unless they sent you a new award notice and you didn't tell them of their mistake within one month

Did you raise a dispute or an appeal? If not, did they tell you how to raise a dispute?
You are probably out of time to raise a dispute, but you may be able to reset the clock if you weren't advised of your rights.
However if the error was due to clear official error that you could not be expected to correct the time limit is 5 years. If this applies be sure to mention this when you raise a dispute.
Have you involved your MP?

If the deductions are causing hardship have you requested they reduce the amount currently deducted, or even suspend or write off the overpayment?

[Takethis]

Re: Any advice ?

No all I have done is right letters to both organisations HMRC and Department of Work and Pensions. HMRC are correct in one respect because they did pay us working tax when my husband wasn't working. So they have overpaid us but DWP underpaid us all the time we were receiving tax credit. So we only received £13 JSA when we should have been paid £90 ish pound, I forget the exact amount but it does state it in the above letter from DWP above in my thread. So the Working tax payment was withdrawn (resulting in the overpayment) that we are paying back now. So therefore the £13 JSA was all we had for a number of months. Do you see what I mean. Therefore we were underpaid by DWP for months. I really don't know where to go with this ? Do I need to argue my case to DWP ? The last letter I wrote to them in September stated that working tax was withdrawn and I am paying this back which in retrospect meant that we lived off £13 for a number of months. I did not receive a reply from this letter. to be honest I do not know where to start with it all. My family have told me to seek advice from a solicitor but I cannot afford legal fees. I saw someone from citizens advice about it a while ago and they said it should be a simple case of HMRC over paid you DWP underpaid you therefore DWP should reimburse you the months of going without JSA or they should pay back the over payment to HMRC and HMRC should reimburse what you have paid already. I explained all this to DWP in a letter and as you can see from my previous post the letter I received in response to my letter. It is taking so long to sort out because no-one will help me resolve this, and I don't know what else to do.
I have all the evidence of the amount of money DWP paid us during this period, yet still no-one will help or accept responsibility. If you could offer any further advice, that would be fantastic....Thanks

[des8]

Re: Any advice ?

Without seeing what you have written and HMRC have replied it is going to be difficult to guide you.
Could you possibly post up all letters, suitably redacting them.
Do you have a record of all phone calls?

It may be possible to stop the deductions while this is sorted.

Regarding the DWP, again can you post up correspondence you have had with them.

I think your best approach might be to involve your MP, who can refer it to the Parliamentary Ombudsman for you.
Someone needs to get these two government departments to talk to each other.
Talk about joined up thinking

[nemesis45]

Re: Any advice ?

Reading through this thread it seems there are two entirely separate complaints.
1. HMCTS overpayment of WTC.
2. DWP underpayment JSA.
All originating from a failure to notify change of circumstances.
It has always been an obligation for the benefit claimant to notify
the relevant Government department of any changes, this is made
abundantly clear on forms and guidance documents.

I think you need to tackle each problem with the department responsible
for a benefit, otherwise one ends up with total confusion!

nem

[des8]

Re: Any advice ?

The OP says they notified HMRC,(see DWP letter of March 2013 quoted in post 1)

Problem is
(a) DWP say they worked on declared income (true, just that income was inflated by incorrect WTC payment)
(b) HMRC did not act when advised of change of circumstances, and throw responsibility back on claimant to check they the claimant is receiving correct amount thirty days later ( COP 26)

I think its going to be necessary to SAR HMRC to establish what and when they were told, and to check that COP 26 was followed.

[Takethis]

Re: Any advice ?

The only letter have ever received from DWP is this,


When you claimed JSA in March 2011, you were in receipt of WTC of 88.94 per week, which was taken into account as income against your personal allowance rate of 102.75
As WTC continued to be paid until 9/9/2011, this continued to be treated as income received when assessing your JSA entitlement
Taking the guidance and legislation into I can confirm no arrears of JSA will be due to you for the period.
As you state you informed WTC that you had finished work, yet continued to recieve WTC, it was your responsibility to check with HMRC whether this was correct.
It is always the responsibility of the claimant to report a change in circumstances to the relevant department,on time, and to check any subsequent communications from that department to alert them of any possible discrepancies.
This letter was in response to my letter explaining that we had been undepaid JSA ans overpaid WTC and we now have to pay back the total amount to HMRC. I have wrote other letters but have been ignored. I have never made any phone calls to them, so have no record of any.
HMRC wrote to explain the they had overpaid is £2000+ ( during the period that we should have been getting JSA) and therefore they will take back the overpayment from all future awards.
When husband went to claim JSA he told the adviser that he was now out of work, and explained at the time that we were in receipt of WTC and THEY said " well we will just top up your JSA to meet your personal allowance" and we trusted their word that this was correct as they are there to advise us.
So much time has passed with being thrown from pillar to post and I just don't know whether we can do anything or whether there is indeed anything we can actually do at all.
Nevertheless we are paying back a £2000+ bill and this is being stopped every week !
What would you advise I do, I do not know where to start !
Is it worth seeing a solicitor ???
Thanks in anticipation of your replies

[des8]

Re: Any advice ?

Did you ever tell HMRC about your changed circumstances?

[Takethis]

Re: Any advice ?

I think my husband just took the advise of the JSA advisor because he told him that we were getting WTC credit which is awarded for a 6 month period regardless of circumstance, and his JSA payment would just be topped up to meet a living allowance. We are not disputing that we were over paid WTC by HMRC but what we are disputing is the face that DWP under paid us numerous months, and if we are now paying that WTC overpayment back it would mean that we had to live off £13 a wk for months. Even the law states that you need a certain amount of money to live on. Also what baffles me is if the fact that DWP paid us JSA so obviously they knew that we were out of work (be we were still advised that WTC would be topped up )but we would not have been able to claim JSA if we were in work. You can only claim JSA if you are looking for work, yet they topped up WTC with JSA. It just does not make sense.......

[des8]

Re: Any advice ?

As you didn't inform HMRC about your change in circumstances, IMO you are not in a position to challenge their clawback.

Your claim has to be against DWP, but to appeal against their decision you have to appeal within a month of their decision, (which I think was back in March 2013)
If the appeal is turned down, you can then appeal to a tribunal.
However there is a process that has to be followed. As your case started before Oct 2013, I think it will be covered by the "old appeal process"
You said that you had written other letters, but these had been ignored. Do you have copies of these letters, and possibly proof of posting/delivery?
Did you only ever receive the one letter from DWP?
Did that letter tell you about your right to appeal?
If they did not tell you about your right to appeal, I think you might have a chance of getting the case to be considered by a tribunal, but it will be a fight.

If they told you about your appeal rights, I think your best chance will be a complaint to your MP.

[Takethis]

Re: Any advice ?

Hi
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you I have been looking through the paperwork, unfortunately I have no proof of postage or letters, all I ahve is old emails between myself and an online advice source (advising me to write more letters and what to put in them)
The ONLY letter I have received from DWP was on 13.3.13 and I have quoted the letter in the above thread.
There is nothing on the letter to advise about appealing the decision.
This is the letter word for word
Dear Sir
Re-Your request for arrears of Jobseekers Allowance for the period 23.3.11-3.9.11
When you claimed Jobseekers Allowance in March 2011, you were in receipt of Working Tax Credit of £88.94 per week , which was taken into account as income against your personal allowance of £102.75
As working tax credit continued to be paid until 9.9.11 this continued to be treated as income received when assessing your Jobseekers Allowance entitlement.
Taking the guidance and legislation into consideration, I can confirm no arrears of Jobseekers Allowance will be due to you for that period.
As you state you had informed Working Tax Credit that you had finished work, yet continued to receive Working Tax Credit, It was your responsibility to check with HMRC whether this was correct.
It is always the responsibility of the claimant to report a change in circumstances to the relevant department on time and to check any subsequent communications from that department to alert them of any possible discrepancies.
The letter ends there. My husband believes he may have phoned HMRC but it would have been from a public phone as we has no mobiles at the time. Yet he assumed that what the adviser told him was correct.
Also the reason we did not pursue this straight away was because at the time my husband was out of work for quite a while. The only time we were made aware of any overpayment was when my husband returned to work and we began to claim WTC again. Any advice is very much appreciated......Thanks again
Anything I have missed or you would like to know, please feel free to ask me

[des8]

Re: Any advice ?

You need to find out for sure if you contacted HMRC, telling them about being out of work.
Do this by sending them an SAR

TCO SAR Team
Group 7
Area F
Floor 1 St Marks House
St Marys Street
Preston
Lancashire
PR1 4AT

Ref:(Your NI number)


DataProtection Act 1998
Subject Access Request


DearSir or Madam,


Pleasewould you supply me with a complete list of personal data you hold onme. You should be aware that personal data can be held in writteninformation, e-mails, electronic documents, photographs, CCTV images,telephone conversations and include recorded opinions about orintentions regarding myself.


Additionally,where there has been any event in the account history over thisperiod which has required any manual intervention by any member ofyour staff or any other person, I require disclosure of anyindication or notes which have either caused or resulted in thatmanual intervention in relation to my account.


Ifyou are unable to supply the information in relation to manualintervention because there has been no such manual intervention, thenplease be kind enough to confirm this in your response to thisrequest.


Thisis my request to access ALL the data held by you and any othercompany associated with you about myself. You should be fully awareof the statutory obligations under the Data Protection Act 1998 andthat any failure to comply with this request could result in acontravention of the said Act.

You have 40 Days in which tocomply.
Yours faithfully

[Takethis]

Re: Any advice ?

Thanks, if he did not contact HMRC ( which to be honest I am pretty sure he did not, he took the advice of the adviser and that was it.) Where do you think we stand ?