Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

[sepilko]

Hi...
Newbie poster seeking advice please!

I have just received a rejection letter from Barclays for a PPI claim and wanted to know the best way to respond please as it turns out I have had PPI on my current count since the early/ mid 1990's.

Their comments:
"About our decision- following investigation I have been unable to identify how your application for PPI was made. I have therefore assumed that at the point of applying for PPI we gave you advice on taking out this policy"
"You were eligible as you were over 18, a UK resident and in full time employment"
"I am satisfied that the policy was suitable for your needs at the time of sale- the information we provided was clear, fair and not misleading and we took adequate steps to ensure you met the requirements"
"An independent review took place that covered the time your policy was sold. I am therefore satisfied you were provided enough info to make an informed decision"

In terms of my circumstances:
I have never knowingly applied for, asked for, agreed to or even required PPI insurance (was quite a shock to find it on there).
They are right about me being employed… etc, but how can they just enroll me onto a policy without my consent?

I am sorry for the long winded email, but hopefully it gives someone more knowledgeable than me, enough of an overview to give me some advice on the next best steps to take.

Thanks in advance!

[Victoria27]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Hello and welcome Sepilko.
I am sorry for your experience.
I am sure there are many wonderful experts here, at that amazing Forum, who will be able to advise.

As I understand, you were not aware of the policy. It is often the situation.
(I personally was very lucky with Barclays, they upheld my case and were very helpful and supportive.
What a pity your have such a different outcome).

I noticed that the easiest cases to win are the cases where you can prove that you could not have made a successful claim, for example due to your employment status or pre-existing medical conditions.

Clearly it is not your case. The bank states that the policy was suitable for your needs.
However, the way I see it, you have 2 important points to make in order to support your complaint.

1. You were not aware of the fact that you were enrolled in that policy.
2. You did not need this policy, because you had other means to repay, such as...
other insurances, sick pay, substancial savings etc. (please state what is appropriate.

It will be good if you can prove that you would never knowingly taken such an expensive policy, which was clearly absolutely unnecessary for you because...(you state your personal circumstances).

It is not reasonable or believable to suggest that anybody will add unnecessary expense and knowingly buy any product, including a financial product unless we are led to believe we need to buy it or are not aware it is optional or are not aware we bought it. We always try to reduce our expenses and costs, not to add to it.
Therefore, if you can show to the bank that in no way you could have knowingly take this policy, it would be in your favour.

I noticed in the comments from the bank one interesting point:
"About our decision- following investigation I have been unable to identify how your application for PPI was made. I have therefore assumed that at the point of applying for PPI we gave you advice on taking out this policy"

I thnk it is something you can challenge.
They were not able to identify how your application was made, therefore they assumed...etc"

That looks to me in a breach of the FCA guidelines.
They should not assume what might have happened in line of the existing practises and scripts, but should base their decision on the particular sale you are complaining about.

I refer:

DISP App 3.3.4
01/04/2013
FCA
Where the complainant's account of events conflicts with the firm's own records or leaves doubt, the firm should assess the reliability of the complainant's account fairly and in good faith. The firm should make all reasonable efforts (including by contact with the complainant where necessary) to clarify ambiguous issues or conflicts of evidence before making any finding against the complainant.

DISP App 3.3.9
01/04/2013
FCA
In determining a particular complaint, the firm should (unless there are reasons not to because of the quality and plausibility of the respective evidence) give more weight to any specific evidence of what happened during the sale (including any relevant documentation and oral testimony) than to general evidence of selling practices at the time (such as training, instructions or sales scripts or relevant audit or compliance reports on those practices).

DISP App 3.6.2
01/04/2013
FCA
In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the firm should presume that the complainant would not have bought the payment protection contract he bought...

I enclose for you the relevant link:

http://fshandbook.info/FS/html/FCA/DISP/App/3


I believe you can show them that in your particular circumstances you had no reason to buy this expensive insurance because....

I believe they now refer you to the Ombudsman.

Hiwever, I suggest, if you are ok with that to go back to business again and to write to the CEO. I personally would email.
In my case with Santander I emailed to the CEO and copied it to my MP in the same email, so that the CEO department could see that my MP was involved and kept posted.

Eventually it worked.

If you feel like going down that CEO route (which I also used with HSBC as well as with Santander, and it worked again), I am happy to help with some suggestions about a draft of the letter (email) for you to edit accordingly.
Please let me know if you would like me to help you with that.

Let's see what our experts will suggest.

Best,

Victoria

[sepilko]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Hello and welcome Sepilko.
I am sorry for your experience.
I am sure there are many wonderful experts here, at that amazing Forum, who will be able to advise.

As I understand, you were not aware of the policy. It is often the situation.
(I personally was very lucky with Barclays, they upheld my case and were very helpful and supportive.
What a pity your have such a different outcome).

I noticed that the easiest cases to win are the cases where you can prove that you could not have made a successful claim, for example due to your employment status or pre-existing medical conditions.

Clearly it is not your case. The bank states that the policy was suitable for your needs.
However, the way I see it, you have 2 important points to make in order to support your complaint.

1. You were not aware of the fact that you were enrolled in that policy.
2. You did not need this policy, because you had other means to repay, such as...
other insurances, sick pay, substancial savings etc. (please state what is appropriate.

It will be good if you can prove that you would never knowingly taken such an expensive policy, which was clearly absolutely unnecessary for you because...(you state your personal circumstances).

It is not reasonable or believable to suggest that anybody will add unnecessary expense and knowingly buy any product, including a financial product unless we are led to believe we need to buy it or are not aware it is optional or are not aware we bought it. We always try to reduce our expenses and costs, not to add to it.
Therefore, if you can show to the bank that in no way you could have knowingly take this policy, it would be in your favour.

I noticed in the comments from the bank one interesting point:
"About our decision- following investigation I have been unable to identify how your application for PPI was made. I have therefore assumed that at the point of applying for PPI we gave you advice on taking out this policy"

I thnk it is something you can challenge.
They were not able to identify how your application was made, therefore they assumed...etc"

That looks to me in a breach of the FCA guidelines.
They should not assume what might have happened in line of the existing practises and scripts, but should base their decision on the particular sale you are complaining about.

I refer:

DISP App 3.3.4
01/04/2013
FCA
Where the complainant's account of events conflicts with the firm's own records or leaves doubt, the firm should assess the reliability of the complainant's account fairly and in good faith. The firm should make all reasonable efforts (including by contact with the complainant where necessary) to clarify ambiguous issues or conflicts of evidence before making any finding against the complainant.

DISP App 3.3.9
01/04/2013
FCA
In determining a particular complaint, the firm should (unless there are reasons not to because of the quality and plausibility of the respective evidence) give more weight to any specific evidence of what happened during the sale (including any relevant documentation and oral testimony) than to general evidence of selling practices at the time (such as training, instructions or sales scripts or relevant audit or compliance reports on those practices).

DISP App 3.6.2
01/04/2013
FCA
In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the firm should presume that the complainant would not have bought the payment protection contract he bought...

I enclose for you the relevant link:

http://fshandbook.info/FS/html/FCA/DISP/App/3


I believe you can show them that in your particular circumstances you had no reason to buy this expensive insurance because....

I believe they now refer you to the Ombudsman.

Hiwever, I suggest, if you are ok with that to go back to business again and to write to the CEO. I personally would email.
In my case with Santander I emailed to the CEO and copied it to my MP in the same email, so that the CEO department could see that my MP was involved and kept posted.

Eventually it worked.

If you feel like going down that CEO route (which I also used with HSBC as well as with Santander, and it worked again), I am happy to help with some suggestions about a draft of the letter (email) for you to edit accordingly.
Please let me know if you would like me to help you with that.

Let's see what our experts will suggest.

Best,

Victoria

Thank you for your constructive comments/ thoughts Victoria,

I will dig through some paperwork I have from the time this evening, but believe I had/ have additional sick pay entitlement though work which is in my original contract and I was in a position to service an overdraft if I was out of work (no other insurances in place).
I fear that my cause wont be helped though, by the long time this has been on the account/ statements, but they list it in with the overdraft fee, and I assumed (yes...all this time!) that it was part of the fees for using the overdraft.
I have found out this afternoon from Barclays, that it started in Sept 1991...I had turned 18 two months previously and the fees started the month after I first went into my overdraft (not sure of the relevance of that, but seems a coincidence).

[Victoria27]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Thank you, Sepilko.
I believe, it is a good argument if you can show that you could pay off your overdraft. If you could do it, why would you take an additional insurance?

It is normal to assume that any additional fee is just a service fee and not to question it.
I had it with some of my cards and never had a clue it was an optional product attached, assuming if was another service charge.
It does not "damage" your case, it does not prove you knew about that policy.
We are supposed to trust our banks and we would not imagine being enrolled in some policy without our consent, so, it is expected that you did not check all your statements with a tooth comb, with suspicious mind and did not take a legal advice
V

[leclerc]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

I wanted to add to Victoria's post that most policies covered you for death but that may already be covered by your employment's own death in service beneift, for example. The policy is what counts and I would add double coverage is a good argument, ie you had cover in place both prior and post PPI starting points.

[Victoria27]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Very good points, Leclerc.
Excellent!
Victoria

[sepilko]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Hi Victoria,
I would like to take you up on your kind offer for help with the ceo draft letter route please, if that is still ok?
The wording at the end of my initial rejection letter does not be appear to be a final decision and indicates the door is still open for me to go back to them, if I have anything else for them to take into account (...so I think this would be the best route to try, before finally going to the ombudsman if it fails!).
I really just started this more on an impulse, not thinking I had any PPI (but just double-checking), so I did not go into much detail on my original online contact with them.

Update on the other bits, I have checked my contract from the time, unfortunately it is documented as 'discretionary' company sick pay only. In practice they did at the time/ and still do pay it out for prolonged periods on full pay, rather than SSP, but unlikely to help me like I originally thought.

However, nothing has changed on the fact that I was able to service the overdraft without this cover if I was unable to work, and should be able to provide some corroborating evidence to this effect still.

So any suggestions/ advice on a draft would be most welcome.

(someone else did provide me this interesting link on a ombudsman decision with some similar attributes...unfortunately it did not come down in complainants favour, but I don't want just let them away on it that easily now)
http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.u...x?FileID=26282


Thanks in advance.
A

[Victoria27]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Hi, Sepilko.
Thank you for your update.
I had a look at the link and I agree with you.
There are definitely similarities, however you are absolutely right not to let them get away so easy.
I think it will be very important to show that you did have other means to repay and would not have taken that cover knowingly.

I understand that you just turned 18 (a few month before you application), is that so?
It should work in your favour.
I believe it was one of your first applications, so I doubt you were that experienced in financial matters.

I'll give it some thought and will try to put a little draft for you shortly.
I think, it is a good to continue with them, via CEO office. They left the door opened.
Meanwhile, if you remember anything useful, please post it, if possible,

Did you do your application online, in the branch or over the phone?

Thank you.

Victoria

[sepilko]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

HI,
Yes that correct, it started 2 months after I turned 18. I had been banking with them before that, but as I was under 18 I did not have an overdraft.
In terms of getting an overdraft, it would have been in branch.
You are correct, I did not have any dealings with banks for financial matters previously (i.e. loans etc). I only had the one bank account and two savings accounts.
I used the overdraft probably 1 month in 3 at the time and only by small amounts (i.e. <£50.00)... I have found the paper statements from the time and for the following few years.

Thanks Again

[Victoria27]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Thank you.
It is all in your favour.
Is it your main bank, are you still with Barclays?
If so, we might try to appeal to their better side, prior to you going hard on them.


To ask them to reinvestigate,
considering your being their loyal customer for so many years, etc.,
at the time of your application you were absolutely inexperienced and totally trusting your financial advisor,
you did not understand that an additional product was attached to your account. You did not realised it was optional.
Considering the fact, it was your first overdraft, you most likely thought that if something was recommended to you, it was compulsory and not optional.
You should be able to prove that you could pay off the amount required as you had other means to repay.
That is why you would not have knowingly taken an additional optional product.
The mere fact that you ended up with a rather expensive insurance you did not really need, having other ways of repaying money, which you can show, proves the fact that it was not properly explained to you, therefore it was mis-sold.
Taking into consideration your young age and a lack of experience in such matters, it is reasonable to believe your side of the story and see that case from your point of you.
They say you were eligible, ok, yes we are not arguing with that, but the fact is,
you did not need this cover, being able to repay yourself.


May be, that approach can be taken to start with.


If it does not work, next step would be to write a much stronger letter, the best, to email it to their CEO (may be with the cc to your Member of Parliament, if you have a chance to put your MP in the picture, explaining that your case was not investigated in a fair manner. It is not necessary to complaint to your MP, but it certainly would make your case stronger).


At that stage you can complaint to the CEO department about the way your complaint was handled.
You will state that you think their rejection was wrong, unfair and in the breach of some of the FCA guidelines, which we discussed before.


You can mention in a much stronger way that it is clear to you they did not really investigate your personal case properly, they did not take into consideration your circumstances such as your age, just turn 18 years old, your lack of experience etc., they totally ignored your testimony, were you stated that you did not knowingly take this cover, you were not aware of it. You were very young and trusted a bank representative.
You should not be punished for your trust, if they reject your case.
They do not have any prove that you did request that policy, they admit it themselves in their comments, stating "they are unable to identify how your application for PPI was made", so they assumed they did everything correct. They cannot prove that.
You, on the other hand, have a prove that you did not need PPI and were in the position to repay without any additional insurance.
Why to assume something they cannot prove, instead of just listening to your side of the story, which is perfectly believable.
But, instead of looking in your individual case, as they should, they sent you a generic rejection letter. That is not right.
You can refer them to the relevant paragraphs in the FCA guidelines, which we mentioned previously.
You can make a point that you will not stop and continue to escalate your case and will go as far as necessary to get it resolved because you believe it is a genuine case of mis-sale and you want it to be investigated in a fair way.
If they believe you will continue to fight your case and will not be put off by their rejection, they might reconsider.


It depends on what do you feel more comfortable to start with.
You may telephone them and have a good talk and ask them if they are prepared to reconsider because of your personal circumstances which, you feel, were overlooked.
Sometime it helps to have a normal conversation .
If they agree, you can give them further 14 days.


On the other hand you may decide to email to the CEO straight away.
I think his email is:


antony.jenkins@barclays.com


I think, those are the steps at that stage.


In the worst case scenario, if the CEO rejects it as well, then next steps could be the Ombudsman (which is unfortunately not as supportive as it used to be) or even a Small Claims Court.
We have a wonderful expert on that procedure, our L'pool64, who, after rejections from the CEO office, was taking Santander to a Small Claims Court, but, as we all expected, they settled out of court.


I hope you will not have to fight your case that hard, the only reason I am telling you about that is to let you know there are few more routes if they reject. It is not the end of the road.


Let's hope the bank will reconsider.


Those are some thoughts for you for a start.


Best of luck,


Victoria

[sepilko]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Thank you for taking the time to help me on this Victoria.
I will sleep on it, but think I will try and speak to them first and escalate from there.
I will let you know how I get on...

[Victoria27]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

You are welcome.
Very wise decision. That is the best way forward.
Good luck with that.
It might do the trick.
When you decide what is your next step we'll take it from there.
V

[sepilko]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Hi Victoria27,
A huge huge thanks to you and Leclerc.
I have today received confirmation that my claim has been upheld and they have refunded my account.
In-case anyone else has similar experience....I did not need to complain to the CEO in the end.
I first called them back after the initial rejection (hit a brick wall there), then wrote a letter back to the standard claims address in Leicester, in-which I outlined and proved to them my position of being able to cover overdraft regardless of employment (and some of the other points recommended above), so why would I have agreed to take this policy out.

Best regards...A very happy man!

[Victoria27]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Dear Sepilko,
I am so happy for you.
Delighted that it worked out. Wonderful news.
Well done!
Congratulations!
Thank you for letting us know
Victoria

[Victoria27]

Re: Barclays Rejection Comments for PPI claim on overdraft- Help!

Our success stories always prove that helping and supporting each other is the best way forward.
Once again may I take this wonderful opportunity to thank this amazing forum.
Legal Beagles are the best!
Thank you very much, everyone, for such a fantastic work you do.

Victoria x