RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

[JonP]

Hi everyone I would appreciate any thoughts....

I'm in the process of referring a RBS credit card PPI miss sell to FOS.

Looking through the RBS terms and conditions it says if you fail to make 3 consecutive payments of PPI the policy will automatically cancel.

Shortly after taking the RBS credit card and being miss sold PPI in 2001 RBS had a computer problem and failed to take PPI payments for 3 consecutive months. By their own terms and conditions the policy should have cancelled but they were still taking payments up until 2009 when I formally cancelled the policy. This would mean I would be paying for something I didn't have.

I've challenged RBS on this and they've confirmed the computer error and their failure but maintain that dispite their own terms the policy was still active.

If anyone has any thoughts it would be appreciated.

[pt2537]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

Hi everyone I would appreciate any thoughts....

I'm in the process of referring a RBS credit card PPI miss sell to FOS.

Looking through the RBS terms and conditions it says if you fail to make 3 consecutive payments of PPI the policy will automatically cancel.

Shortly after taking the RBS credit card and being miss sold PPI in 2001 RBS had a computer problem and failed to take PPI payments for 3 consecutive months. By their own terms and conditions the policy should have cancelled but they were still taking payments up until 2009 when I formally cancelled the policy. This would mean I would be paying for something I didn't have.

I've challenged RBS on this and they've confirmed the computer error and their failure but maintain that dispite their own terms the policy was still active.

If anyone has any thoughts it would be appreciated.

Hi there, interesting points you raise here, but starting right at the beginning, you say the PPI was missold, if that is the case, then i would rely on that as the first point of challenge.

May i ask, why do you say the PPI was missold?

[Bill-K]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

Hi Jon P. I agree with PT's plan of action, but the apparent 'disclaimer' by RBS is an interesting fallback position that could 'backfoot' them if they give you too much trouble !!!

Meanwhile, take a look through the various reasons for mis-selling listed here by Paule, and tick as many boxes as you genuinely think apply in your case:-

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...iminary-Letter

[JonP]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

Going right back to the beginning...

The miss sell ticks a lot of boxes however RBS are arguing that it was a non advised sale. They state that full details of the PPI insurance were sent to me AFTER I took their offer of a credit card and I had plenty of time from that point to decide if the insurance was right for me.

On the application form i don't remember ticking the ppi box but i did hand write a note saying i already had suitable cover! RBS state I would have been aware I was paying for PPI as it clearly states so on the monthly statements. To back up that argument they have sent me a statement showing it. The problem is for 3 consecutive months around the time the card was taken I didn't know PPI was added as it wasn't on the statements due to their computer problem at the time.

I think reluctantly I am going to have a problem on this one as their argument seems quite strong.

[pt2537]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

If they say " we strongly recommend" or "We suggest you take our policy" then it is an advised sale.

Do you know what the agreement says?

[JonP]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

The personal invitation from RBS for a credit card says "we strongly recommend that you take out this insurance". RBS do acknowledge this in their final response but claim it still remains a non advised sale and it was my responsibility to ensure the product was right for me.

In terms of being able to make an informed choice RBS also claim full details of the PPI and the cost were provided after they accepted the credit card application. At that point i had 30 days to cancel.

I cant find any formal definition of an advised or non advised sale so may have to call FOS.

[pt2537]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pubs/other/factsheet_sales.pdf

does that help?

I havent read it properly as time does not allow but it suggests in the title to define between the two.

I have always taken the view that where a lender says i strongly advise you to take this, then it is an advised sale simple as that.

[JonP]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

Thank you so much for the FSA document link... Its a real minefield of words...

From that link a non-advised sale seems to be when no personal recommendation is made to the customer.

So the question is are the words "we strongly advise you take this" a personal recommendation or just unfair marketing?

I found a website that states current FSA rules provide that, amongst other criteria, advice is given where a personal recommendation is "presented as suitable for the person to whom it is made, or is based on a consideration of the circumstances of that person."

Does anyone have any views on this?

[Bill-K]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

FWIW, my very lay assumption on this term has been that an advised sale is where the customer was sold the PPI via a personal meeting with the sales-person. Either on their premises, the customer's, or even platform 7 at King's Cross station. I assume that a non-advised sale is basically a 'distance-selling' of the PPI, where it is all done via snail-mail or email, and the customer is provided with all the relevant bumf, but given no assistance (or 'recommendations') with their appraisal of it. I consider telephone sales to be advised sales, and I think the real-time 'two-way' nature of the sales process to be the criterion.

I would like to invite Leclerc's thought upon this, as he has good knowledge of this area, I believe.

[pt2537]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

FWIW, my very lay assumption on this term has been that an advised sale is where the customer was sold the PPI via a personal meeting with the sales-person. Either on their premises, the customer's, or even platform 7 at King's Cross station. I assume that a non-advised sale is basically a 'distance-selling' of the PPI, where it is all done via snail-mail or email, and the customer is provided with all the relevant bumf, but given no assistance (or 'recommendations') with their appraisal of it. I consider telephone sales to be advised sales, and I think the real-time 'two-way' nature of the sales process to be the criterion.

I would like to invite Leclerc's thought upon this, as he has good knowledge of this area, I believe.

No, i dont believe it is like that.

When someone puts a statement in writing saying "We strongly advise you to take this product" that is an advised sale, advised in the sense they are advising you to take it out.

You are not provided t he terms and conditions at that stage, you are often ticking a box on the basis of that recommendation.

I have argued that such words made the matter become an advised sale before, but there is no binding authority on this point at this stage.

[Bill-K]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

TBH, I prefer your interpretation, PT. But where that statement - or exhortation - is a part of the distance-sold bumf, does it then make the sale an advised sale ? To wit...(yep..."To wooh !!!) I recently exchanged posts where MBNA were being challenged in this respect.

In a recent thread about MBNA claim refusals we had this: "On the application form, in a larger typeface than the bulk of the form, it said: "We strongly recommend payment protection cover" This is clearly an encouragement to buy."

I later added a 1997 encouragement from Bradford & Bingley: "...we believe that Payment Protection Insurance is now vital for anyone arranging a new mrtgage. In fact Bradford & Bingley considers this to be so important that we will pay the first 6 months premiums of this cover for you."

These were written encouragements, and may not have been actually uttered by any salesperson. lf they could yet be taken as evidence or proof that the sale was then an advised sale, then that would be handy at the very least, I reckon.

[JonP]

Re: RBS Computer Failure and PPI Terms

Thank you everyone for your views on this matter.
I have this week spoken to FOS and they've told me what forms I need to send them to review the final position of RBS.
A busy weekend for me. Will update in six months when I hear back