Halifax PPI claim

[tonyw380]

Hi

I have sent a PPI claim to the halifax involving a loan I took out back in 96. I have had a reply asking me to update address details with them first as I still have an open account with only pennies in. I have done this today and will contact them on monday to advise this has been updated.

In their letter they have asked that I contact them by phone to discuss any further details as necessary, sounds like a way of trying to catch people out... just wondering if there is any advice before I phone them?

My circumstances were that I was employed when I took out the loan and was advised 'you should take out the PPI insurance in case you lose your job or are ill due to the loan may not go through unless you do so because of your age. i was about 22 at the time.
I cannot deny i then agreed to the PPI but cannot remember being provided with a booklet or anything other than the loan agreement. About 2 years later I lost my job through a contract dispute and signed on as unemployed.. I contacted the Halifax to advise I could not pay my loan repayments and was advised I had PPI protection and to claim. I was called back by the Halifax a few days later to be advised 'you saw your GP several years ago about a knee condition and as this was not declared at the time of taking out the loan we will not payout.. This was only concluded by telephone and not by letter.. I asked if there was any redress to be advised 'none, that is our decision' as I was still young I took this as final and then became heavily in debt with them being defaulted several times and then becoming more in debt going to a debt management company...
In 2002 i got a loan with another bank and paid off the debt outstanding but obviously have been annoyed since by the halifax and what they did. If I had have known I had to declare all of my GP's visits I would never have taken out the PPI! or should have been advised on this and that this would have affected my eligibilty... secondly i lost my job and was unemployed!
I will await a further response from them but can you advise if this type of claim is viable or not? (i have only now done this because my sister had a payout from Lloyds from 1992 onwards and I didnt believe you could go back that far!
Any help would be really appreciated!

regards

Tony

[di30]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

Hi Tony and welcome

In my opinion you have a good case here and if they reject this, it shows they have just done do by using the automatic/generic standard fob off letters (they seem to be using for many lately).
However, hopefully your's will be straight forward.

Personally,I would not contact them, if they require further info, then they should do so in writing, although I do think you have already provided another information - where you have strong grounds here.
If they do contact you randomly, tell them to refer to your complaint, as all the information they require is enclosed on your complaint, or that you will send your information they requesting in writing only.

Well done to your sister as well.
And yes many have been successful in reclaiming from very older years ;-)

Please keep us posted, and any probs ask away, good luck.

[Bill-K]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

Hi Tony, and welcome to you. I guess you're certainly older and wiser now, as you know exactly why they want to discuss matters over the phone. So I agree with you that you need to insist on getting everything in writing, and that you have learned the hard way NOT to conduct business over the phone - especially with the very firm that taught you that principle !!!

Your claim certainly looks viable to me, but the lenders will try every trick in the book to get out of paying claims - and your example is a typical one. What you may now find is that they will try and avoid dealing with claims that go back further than 6 years, and this is where they further exploit the fact that if you don't have anything in writing - then you don't have anything at all. If you haven't done so already, then I think - unless you have kept all of your records concerning this - you may need to consider sending a Data Subject Access Request (DSAR). If you haven't done this, then I would certainly suggest that you read up on PPI claims to get a better idea of 'the lie of the land.'

You may be lucky and get a quick result - but you may need to be prepared to be persistent. The viability of your claim often relies upon your own efforts to prove this, unfortunately. I sincerely hope you get a fast result, but I believe you must be ready for a battle - and must be able to show them that you are ready to do battle with them.

EDIT: PS - I see that our Di has just responded here, now, and my post was made before reading hers. We both seem to agree that you have a strong claim - and Di is very experienced with PPI claims going over 6 years back.

[tonyw380]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

Hi Tony, and welcome to you. I guess you're certainly older and wiser now, as you know exactly why they want to discuss matters over the phone. So I agree with you that you need to insist on getting everything in writing, and that you have learned the hard way NOT to conduct business over the phone - especially with the very firm that taught you that principle !!!

Your claim certainly looks viable to me, but the lenders will try every trick in the book to get out of paying claims - and your example is a typical one. What you may now find is that they will try and avoid dealing with claims that go back further than 6 years, and this is where they further exploit the fact that if you don't have anything in writing - then you don't have anything at all. If you haven't done so already, then I think - unless you have kept all of your records concerning this - you may need to consider sending a Data Subject Access Request (DSAR). If you haven't done this, then I would certainly suggest that you read up on PPI claims to get a better idea of 'the lie of the land.'

You may be lucky and get a quick result - but you may need to be prepared to be persistent. The viability of your claim often relies upon your own efforts to prove this, unfortunately. I sincerely hope you get a fast result, but I believe you must be ready for a battle - and must be able to show them that you are ready to do battle with them.

EDIT: PS - I see that our Di has just responded here, now, and my post was made before reading hers. We both seem to agree that you have a strong claim - and Di is very experienced with PPI claims going over 6 years back.

Hi Di and Bill

Thank you very much for your advice on this matter it is greatly appreciated! I will contact them and if they ask any questions then I will ask for them in writing.... i am definately prepared for a battle on this and am more incensed by the fact they are sending out what appears to be standard letters to people after everything the banks and government have said on the PPI scandal.. From the other cases I have seen you deal with on here relating to the halifax over the last few months it appears they are saying they have looked into cases and reviewed them thoroughly without even providing basic details of the transaction that originally occurred.

If anything I think this practice by these companies all but proves the misselling that occurred in the 90's onwards and almost implicates them. I really don't think they would wish to tackle the financial ombudsman on any of these matters as I think their proof is thinner than the tip of a lead pencil! I think based on all of the cases provided the banks should just refund anyone that had PPI to save the messing about and the admin costs they are now having to include...

Anyway if necessary ill request the DSAR but hopefully it wont go that far!

Regards

Tony

[tonyw380]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

[QUOTE=tonyw380;332906]Hi Di and Bill

Thank you very much for your advice on this matter it is greatly appreciated! I will contact them and if they ask any questions then I will ask for them in writing.... i am definately prepared for a battle on this and am more incensed by the fact they are sending out what appears to be standard letters to people after everything the banks and government have said on the PPI scandal.. From the other cases I have seen you deal with on here relating to the halifax over the last few months it appears they are saying they have looked into cases and reviewed them thoroughly without even providing basic details of the transaction that originally occurred.

If anything I think this practice by these companies all but proves the misselling that occurred in the 90's onwards and almost implicates them. I really don't think they would wish to tackle the financial ombudsman on any of these matters as I think their proof is thinner than the tip of a lead pencil! I think based on all of the cases provided the banks should just refund anyone that had PPI to save the messing about and the admin costs they are now having to include...

Anyway if necessary ill request the DSAR but hopefully it wont go that far!




Hi Di and Bill again.

I contacted the Halifax by telephone today to ask how my claim is going as it is now 7 weeks since they received it. Miraculously they advise a letter is in the post and was done yesterday. The advisor went on to tell me that they are offering £824.21 which includes interest at 8% and refunded payments. I am not sure how they came to that figure but given it is 13 years down the line and i had no paperwork I suppose that isn't a bad offer. Judging by what i am hearing it appears people maybe better off accepting these first offers as if you approach the ombudsman then the figure may well some what reduce as they may withdraw any goodwill shown. Do you both feel this is the case in your viewings lately?
It does seem a low offer based upon the experience I had but i suppose nobody can take back the bad credit history i endured because of this scandal or how long it took me to rebuild my credit rating so they have not taken any of this into account when making an offer... do you think some of this should be taken into account or am i beating my head against a brick wall with that one?

Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

regards

Tony Westwood

[di30]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

Hi there

Thanks for the update and that is good news, well done!

When you receive your letter, they will usually provide figures on how they came to the offer.
So basically what you should receive back is the premiums you paid of the PPI to date of settlement or cancellation, plus the relevant interest of 8% etc....

So if this is the case where they paid all the premiums you actually paid, plus the said interest, they will not go over that offer, in this case you accept.
If your not happy with the figure and realise you did pay more than stated, you can of course ask them to reconsider, but if they did not consider and you did complain to the FOS, they will also want evidence of all PPI you paid.

Going back to the offer is that does appear to be correct (they should provide a breakdown) then yes accept

[tonyw380]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

Hi Di

Got the response from the Halifax and exhausted reading it! I have tried to upload this document for you to see but after scanning them they are too big to upload and not that technical to resize them!

Anyhow the crux of the 10 pages are they have provided breakdowns of several loans which were over several years and standard approach have advised they do not believe the product was missold but that based upon my circumstances I should have been offered a 'comparative regular premium policy' and not the policy that accrues interest when a refinance occurs.

Based upon this they have offered £821.71 which they state 'Our offer, in line with the guidelines set out by the FSA, represents the difference between what you have actually paid for your ppi policy, inclusive of interest and what you would have paid for the comparative regular premium PPI policy.' The appendices show that my actual payments including interest were approx £1220.

I have contacted Halifax today to reject the initial offer based on the fact that:

1. They have not addressed anywhere the fact that they did not pay out on the policy and therefore if I was eligible for the policy (stated in their letter) why did they not pay out on unemployment grounds forcing me into debt.
2. I do not understand how the referred guideline from the FSA. How can a company state 'we should have offered a different policy type' and this not be a form of misselling. Quite clearly if they state now i should have been offered a different policy this blatantly advises on misselling? What do you think on this?
3. I have asked the Halifax that they refund all of my payments made with the interest at 8% totalling £1220. Do you think this is a fair challenge?

The problem I have with this case is I do not have any documentation to support that they would not pay out on the policy. Only verbal telephone conversations with them. Obviously I would not have taken the PPI policy out with the loan if I was ineligible based on previous doctors visits. At no point at POS was I advised doctors appointments over several years would need to be declared.

The halifax have offered this sum based upon partly upholding the case. I believe this is based on the fact that a different type of policy should have been marketed at initial agreement.

Have you guys seen this before? Any advice would be appreciated. I could send you the letter I have scanned if you have any ideas on how to resize this JPG format from scanning.

Thanks

Tony Westwood

[Bill-K]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

Blimey - 10 pages - you're certainly making them work hard, Tony !!! By all means anonymise and email your scans to Simiantics@gmail.com, which is an email address which Turboman and I use for PPI & spreadsheet queries. I should then be able to reduce the size and post them here.

If you have no record of claiming on the PPI policy, then you will have to rely on whatever Hellifax admit to you - so I doubt if you'll get much joy there. They appear to be basing their reduced offer on what the FSA has termed the 'Alternative Redress.'
" Alternative approach to redress: single premium policies
3.7.7 E Where the only breach or failing was within DISP App 3.6.2E(9) and/or DISP
App 3.6.2E(12), and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the firm may
presume that instead of buying the single premium payment protection contract
he bought, the complainant would have bought a regular premium payment
protection contract.
3.7.8 E If a firm chooses to make this presumption, then it should do so fairly and for all
relevant complainants in a relevant category of sale. It should not, for example,
only use the approach for those complainants it views as being a lower
underwriting risk or those complainants who have cancelled their policies.
3.7.9 E Where the firm presumes that the complainant would have purchased a regular
premium payment protection contract, the firm should offer redress that puts the
complainant in the position he would have been if he had bought an alternative
regular premium payment protection contract.
3.7.10 E The firm should pay to the complainant a sum equal to the amount in DISP App
3.7.3E less the amount the complainant would have paid for the alternative
regular premium payment protection contract."

Although this Alternative Approach to Redress has the FSA rules to back it, I believe that the 'presumption' made by the lender that the claimant would have bought alternative PPI if s/he had been offered it can be challenged if the claimant has not admitted this themselves. But this depends on what you have stated are your grounds for believing that the PPI was mis-sold. I think it is quite possible that this Alternative redress can be successfully challenged - but it may need to go through the FOS, which takes time.

[tonyw380]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

Blimey - 10 pages - you're certainly making them work hard, Tony !!! By all means anonymise and email your scans to Simiantics@gmail.com, which is an email address which Turboman and I use for PPI & spreadsheet queries. I should then be able to reduce the size and post them here.

If you have no record of claiming on the PPI policy, then you will have to rely on whatever Hellifax admit to you - so I doubt if you'll get much joy there. They appear to be basing their reduced offer on what the FSA has termed the 'Alternative Redress.'
" Alternative approach to redress: single premium policies
3.7.7 E Where the only breach or failing was within DISP App 3.6.2E(9) and/or DISP
App 3.6.2E(12), and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the firm may
presume that instead of buying the single premium payment protection contract
he bought, the complainant would have bought a regular premium payment
protection contract.
3.7.8 E If a firm chooses to make this presumption, then it should do so fairly and for all
relevant complainants in a relevant category of sale. It should not, for example,
only use the approach for those complainants it views as being a lower
underwriting risk or those complainants who have cancelled their policies.
3.7.9 E Where the firm presumes that the complainant would have purchased a regular
premium payment protection contract, the firm should offer redress that puts the
complainant in the position he would have been if he had bought an alternative
regular premium payment protection contract.
3.7.10 E The firm should pay to the complainant a sum equal to the amount in DISP App
3.7.3E less the amount the complainant would have paid for the alternative
regular premium payment protection contract."

Although this Alternative Approach to Redress has the FSA rules to back it, I believe that the 'presumption' made by the lender that the claimant would have bought alternative PPI if s/he had been offered it can be challenged if the claimant has not admitted this themselves. But this depends on what you have stated are your grounds for believing that the PPI was mis-sold. I think it is quite possible that this Alternative redress can be successfully challenged - but it may need to go through the FOS, which takes time.

Thanks Bill

Interesting information you have provided there. I will get the documents sent to that e-mail address if you can do your whizz things, i will take out my name and details.

I can only agree that I took the policy in the first place because the seller advised it would cover me for illness or loss of employment. I cannot remember getting a policy document and therefore this is my word against the halifax. At the end of the day I lost my job and they advised me to claim. They put it through and it was refused on grounds of a pre-existing illness that was not declared at the initial agreement of the policy. Nothing to do with being made unemployed...
Would anyone pay £1000 for a policy if they knew they could not claim on it? And in relation to the alternative PPI hindsight is a powerful thing and why would the Halifax have sold this policy if the sales staff were on commission for the bulk payment policies? of which we now know. So in hindsight I would never have bought the alternative knowing that the Halifax would not have paid out.

If push comes to shove then I may just accept the lower offer but I have tonight sent an e-mail to the MD there asking for his redress on the matter as the PPI dept just seem to want me to go to the FSA leading me to believe you only get one shot at it!

Anyway have a read of my letter and see what you think. Any advice would be appreciated.

regards

Tony

[Bill-K]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

I've reduced the size to approx. 40% and removed account nos. & dates etc. So I'll post up the letter and invite comments from others. I'll also comment later - but this IS using the 'Alternative Redress' method, and we may need to consider refuting this. I'll attach the summary pages first - then the calculations.

[Bill-K]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

....

[Bill-K]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

Here's my take on this, then, Tony - based on the info that I have so far...

They have admitted mis-selling the PPI, which is the first big hurdle to jump.

They are indeed using the 'Alternative Redress,' which allows them to make a reduced offer - but ONLY IF certain other FSA rules have been applied and/or adhered to. This may not have been the case here, and could be refuted by you.

By my VERY rough estimation, you could be entitled to approx. £2,400 - and not the £821 which you have been offered.

From what I can see, you were led to believe that the loan might not have been offered to you if you chose not to take out the PPI policy that was offered. You also made a claim on the policy which was refused because you did not disclose your FULL medical history. Both of these reasons seem to be good grounds for pursuing the full redress, and for denying that the presumptions required for the Alternative Redress can be made.

You made a claim under the policy which was refused, and under the FSA rules the lender must review the reasons for refusal of this claim. If they have done this, then they do not appear to have done so properly. They have provided NO evidence to show that it was made clear to you that you were required to disclose your FULL medical history before buying the PPI. Had this been the case, then surely they would have been given the info they required to refuse your claim - and you would have been happy not to have wasted your money on a PPI policy. To presume otherwise seems like a presumption of guilt on your part - which is surely NOT something that British Law can see as acceptable.

So - that is my own personal opinion, based on the info that I have. It is NOT professional, and is merely based on the limited experience and knowledge I have acquired from helping peeps with PPI claims over recent years. The decision on whether to accept the amount offered, or press for what I feel you are actually entitled to is entirely yours to make - and should be made with due consideration to any other opinions posted here in your thread.

As for deadlines - you are entitled to expect a reasonable amount of time to properly evaluate an offer of redress. It's always good if we can work within the deadlines imposed by the lenders/FSA/FOS etc. - but these are NOT set in stone, and can be negotiated with reasonable arguments.

[tonyw380]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

Here's my take on this, then, Tony - based on the info that I have so far...

They have admitted mis-selling the PPI, which is the first big hurdle to jump.

They are indeed using the 'Alternative Redress,' which allows them to make a reduced offer - but ONLY IF certain other FSA rules have been applied and/or adhered to. This may not have been the case here, and could be refuted by you.

By my VERY rough estimation, you could be entitled to approx. £2,400 - and not the £821 which you have been offered.

From what I can see, you were led to believe that the loan might not have been offered to you if you chose not to take out the PPI policy that was offered. You also made a claim on the policy which was refused because you did not disclose your FULL medical history. Both of these reasons seem to be good grounds for pursuing the full redress, and for denying that the presumptions required for the Alternative Redress can be made.

You made a claim under the policy which was refused, and under the FSA rules the lender must review the reasons for refusal of this claim. If they have done this, then they do not appear to have done so properly. They have provided NO evidence to show that it was made clear to you that you were required to disclose your FULL medical history before buying the PPI. Had this been the case, then surely they would have been given the info they required to refuse your claim - and you would have been happy not to have wasted your money on a PPI policy. To presume otherwise seems like a presumption of guilt on your part - which is surely NOT something that British Law can see as acceptable.

So - that is my own personal opinion, based on the info that I have. It is NOT professional, and is merely based on the limited experience and knowledge I have acquired from helping peeps with PPI claims over recent years. The decision on whether to accept the amount offered, or press for what I feel you are actually entitled to is entirely yours to make - and should be made with due consideration to any other opinions posted here in your thread.

As for deadlines - you are entitled to expect a reasonable amount of time to properly evaluate an offer of redress. It's always good if we can work within the deadlines imposed by the lenders/FSA/FOS etc. - but these are NOT set in stone, and can be negotiated with reasonable arguments.

Thank you Bill once again great information!

I phoned again this morning and asked another advisor for any timescales, again I was advised kind of whenever. I think i will allow them until the end of this week and then if no response look to go to the FSA as I agree with you by advising they should have offered a different policy they are clearly admitting misselling.

You have advised on a rough estimate being £2400 without going into too much detail for an honest laymen! how did you come to that figure I thought it would be just the amount paid with the interest approx £1200? Have I missed something in the figures?

Kind regards

Tony

[Bill-K]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

I would not suggest that you refer this to the FOS until you have definitely exhausted all chances of settling the matter with Halifax first. It is taking a VERY long time for the FOS to deal with PPI claims these days - several months at least.

As regards my VERY rough calculation, I based it on the figures posted above. I have assumed that Loan 1 was taken out in 1996, and that Loans 2, 3 & 4 immediately followed this in the same year, as a total of only 7 repayments were made on these loans. The total PPI costs paid by you on the loans were £69.95, and a further 8% p.a. simple interest should be added to this. Over 17 years, this comes to £69.95 x 136%, which is £95.13.

Assuming Loan 5 to have been taken out in 1997, then the same calculation would show that the total PPI costs paid by you on loan 4 were £1265.58, and a further 8% p.a. simple interest should be added to this. This loan continued for 59 months (ie., approx. 5 years), so I have assumed that the PPI was paid monthly over this period - and instead of basing the interest calculation on 5 x 8%, I have halved this to approximate the 'sliding scale' over the period of the loan. So, the £1265.58 PPI costs should have attracted a further 20 % during the loan period, which is £253.12.

Upon settlement of Loan 5 - which I have assumed was in 2002, the £1265.58 PPI costs continued to attract 8% p.a. interest. Over 11 years, this comes to 88% of £1265.58, which is £1113.71.

So we have the total PPI costs of Loans 1 - 5, which are £69.95 + £1265.58 = £1335.53.

Then we have the 8% interest, which is £95.13 + £253.12 + £1113.71 = £1461.96.

So - the final claim 'quantum' comes to £1335.53 + £1461.96 = £2797.49.

OK...OK...So I said approx. £2400. I did the original calc on a fag packet and kept it deliberately 'conservative,' but your query has forced me to use a proper abacus in order to show you the 'audit trail.' So we're now looking at approx. £2800.

[tonyw380]

Re: Halifax PPI claim

I would not suggest that you refer this to the FOS until you have definitely exhausted all chances of settling the matter with Halifax first. It is taking a VERY long time for the FOS to deal with PPI claims these days - several months at least.

As regards my VERY rough calculation, I based it on the figures posted above. I have assumed that Loan 1 was taken out in 1996, and that Loans 2, 3 & 4 immediately followed this in the same year, as a total of only 7 repayments were made on these loans. The total PPI costs paid by you on the loans were £69.95, and a further 8% p.a. simple interest should be added to this. Over 17 years, this comes to £69.95 x 136%, which is £95.13.

Assuming Loan 5 to have been taken out in 1997, then the same calculation would show that the total PPI costs paid by you on loan 4 were £1265.58, and a further 8% p.a. simple interest should be added to this. This loan continued for 59 months (ie., approx. 5 years), so I have assumed that the PPI was paid monthly over this period - and instead of basing the interest calculation on 5 x 8%, I have halved this to approximate the 'sliding scale' over the period of the loan. So, the £1265.58 PPI costs should have attracted a further 20 % during the loan period, which is £253.12.

Upon settlement of Loan 5 - which I have assumed was in 2002, the £1265.58 PPI costs continued to attract 8% p.a. interest. Over 11 years, this comes to 88% of £1265.58, which is £1113.71.

So we have the total PPI costs of Loans 1 - 5, which are £69.95 + £1265.58 = £1335.53.

Then we have the 8% interest, which is £95.13 + £253.12 + £1113.71 = £1461.96.

So - the final claim 'quantum' comes to £1335.53 + £1461.96 = £2797.49.

OK...OK...So I said approx. £2400. I did the original calc on a fag packet and kept it deliberately 'conservative,' but your query has forced me to use a proper abacus in order to show you the 'audit trail.' So we're now looking at approx. £2800.

Hi again Bill

Well you were certainly right about a fight! looks like Ill need both gloves on!

Got a letter back today advising that based on any new info provided they still cannot agree the policy was missold! and still will not address the fact they would not pay out when I was unemployed...

I have again e-mailed Mr Nicholson esq.. to ask for redress as you cannot actually speak to any of the PPI team who can only contact you!!
What sort of service is this on dealing with negotiation....
Anyway I have asked again why they will not address this issue and advised that in my opinion this was misold on two grounds one being that they admit alternative policies should have been sold and two that it would appear I would never have been able to claim and clearly was refused on the grounds of pre existing illness which was nothing to do with the claim.

Anyhow just keeping you up to date Ill await another response from them and see where you go. Interesting enough they advise that I have refused there offer so looks like not even the £820 is on the table now!

regards

Tony