Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

[MarkP90]

Hello all,

First post so please be gentle if this has been asked a million times already!

I had a loan (technically 2) with Northern Rock which i paid off early 5 years ago (I only had the actual loan for 2-3years and it was a 10year one IIRC) . I rang the NRAM PPI line, filled in the questionnaire and 14 weeks later i have been made an offer of £1,125.61. This is significantly less than i was expecting and i'm confused about the calculation document so i was hoping someone could help;





If you can't read those please let me know and i'll get typing some more!

Due to the length of time this was ago i have little memory of how the PPI was structured, however i do remember when i came to pay off the loan the amount due was broken down between the loan amount and 'insurance payments', and the insurance payments totalled around £6000!

The only way i can make sense of the above document is that the PPI payments listed in A where the predicted payments over the whole term of the loan, and the 'Early settlement overpayment' was deducted from the total cost of paying off the loan early?!

Any help much appreciated!

Many thanks

Mark

[Turboman]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Hi Mark

Do you have the following so I can look at this in more detail for you?

a) Amount of original advance excl PPI portion
b) Amount of PPI single premium insurance in addition to above
c) Monthy premium --Total (separate as above if you have them) + any subsequent increases in the mthly payments
d) Date of contract and also date of first payment
e) Number of payments made
f) Any missed months or arrears or overpayments
g) The settlement letter when you paid it off + the amounts etc
h) Any other financial info you have

Turbs

[MarkP90]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Well i'm going to be REALLY helpful and say no(!) Unfortunately i have none of that information, when i paid of the loan (and several others) i destroyed all of the information regarding it,

Is it essential to be able to determine what the above table means? If so, am i entitled to get it from NRAM/NR?

[Turboman]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

lol
It does say at the bottom of the letter btw that you can ask for more detail on the calculation

However- I really needed at least the loan amount and the monthly payments

No matter--I'll look at the figures in a couple of hours, consult the FSA Handbook & extrapolate a bit

Be back around 3-4:00 ish

Turbs

[MarkP90]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

I telephoned the 'help'line this morning and other than confirming that i had in fact made the PPI payments to the tune of £3,247.87 (or thats what he 'thought' - my recollection that is was closer to £6000), they were about as helpful as a hole in the head. He couldn't tell me what the debits on the clac summary were and recommended i wrote back to the PPI review team. Looks like this is going to take a while!

Anyway the contents of the letter are;

I am in receipt of my PPI settlement offer, however I need to question the details shown on the Calculation Summary Sheet. In the table;

‘Refund of premiums paid’ is £3,163.60
‘8% simple interest is £1,331.63
‘Carried forward PPI from prior loans’ is £84.27
‘8% simple interest’ on this amount is £35.39
Giving a total of settlement due ; £4,614.89

However, without explanation there are debits from this amount shown as;

‘Early settlement overpayment’ -£2,458.09
‘8% simple interest’ -£1,031.19
Total deductions -£3,489.28

Giving the offer as £1,125.61

I am somewhat confused by this as I have telephoned one of your representatives and they confirmed that £3,247.87 was the total PPI payments I paid in settling my loan. The issue with the PPI was that it was mis-sold to me, therefore I am entitled to all monies I paid for PPI plus 8% interest, the total of which is £4,614.89 (by your calculation I might add, I doubt this figure). I therefore do not accept your offer.

As I do not trust your calculation of the monies due, (as it is my recollection that the final settlement figure to pay off my loan was <£6000 in insurance alone), in order to progress this matter I would like the following information;

1/ What the deductions shown on the calculation sheet summary are for, or were they ‘mistakenly’ added to my settlement?
2/ The amount of original advance excluding PPI portion (for both accounts)
3/ The amount of PPI single premium insurance in addition to the above (Both accounts)
4/ The monthly premium figure, split between actual payment and PPI premium (Both accounts)
5/ The date of contract and of the first payment (Both accounts)
6/ The number of payments made (Both accounts)
7/ Any missed payments or arrears or overpayments
8/ The settlement figures when I paid off the loan, broken down between loan amount and PPI amount

I am sorry this could not have been resolved quickly and amicably, however for the reasons given above I cannot accept your initial offer.

If you request any information of me, or wish to discuss the matter further, please contact me using the details above (email preferred).


Yours faithfully



Mark *****

Can you think of anything else i need to put in there?

[Turboman]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Sorry missed this--suggest following amendments--

Don't at this stage say you are not accepting the offer-merely seeking clarification--and tone down some of your statements

I telephoned the 'help'line this morning and other than confirming that i had in fact made the PPI payments to the tune of £3,247.87 (or thats what he 'thought' - my recollection that is was closer to £6000), they were about as helpful as a hole in the head. He couldn't tell me what the debits on the clac summary were and recommended i wrote back to the PPI review team. Looks like this is going to take a while!

Anyway the contents of the letter are;

I am in receipt of my PPI settlement offer, however I need to question the details shown on the Calculation Summary Sheet. In the table;

‘Refund of premiums paid’ is £3,163.60
‘8% simple interest is £1,331.63
‘Carried forward PPI from prior loans’ is £84.27
‘8% simple interest’ on this amount is £35.39
Giving a total of settlement due ; £4,614.89

However, without explanation there are debits from this amount shown as;

‘Early settlement overpayment’ -£2,458.09
‘8% simple interest’ -£1,031.19
Total deductions -£3,489.28

Giving the offer as £1,125.61

I am somewhat confused by this as I have telephoned one of your representatives and they confirmed that £3,247.87 was the total PPI payments I paid in settling my loan. The issue with the PPI was that it was mis-sold to me, therefore I am entitled to all monies I paid for PPI plus 8% interest, the total of which is £4,614.89 (by your calculation I might add, I doubt this figure). I therefore do not accept your offer.(delete this)

As I do not trust (replace with do not understand)your calculation of the monies due, (as it is my recollection that the final settlement figure to pay off my loan was <£6000 in insurance alone), in order to progress this matter I would like the following information;

1/ What the deductions shown on the calculation sheet summary are for, or were they ‘mistakenly’ (delete this)added to my settlement?
2/ The amount of original advance excluding PPI portion (for both accounts)
3/ The amount of PPI single premium insurance in addition to the above (Both accounts)
4/ The monthly premium figure, split between actual payment and PPI premium (Both accounts)
5/ The date of contract and of the first payment (Both accounts)
6/ The number of payments made (Both accounts)
7/ Any missed payments or arrears or overpayments
8/ The settlement figures when I paid off the loan, broken down between loan amount and PPI amount

Add as below
I anticipate that the above can be satisfied with (for both accounts)

• A copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement
  
• A copy of the PPI Cancellation conditions (outside the 30 day period)
  
• A copy of the Loan Statements from inception to redemption
• A copy of the original Settlement Letter

I am sorry this could not have been resolved quickly and amicably, however for the reasons given above I cannot accept your initial offer.(replace with...I would like further clarification on above before accepting that your offer is complete)

If you request any information of me, or wish to discuss the matter further, please contact me using the details above (email preferred).


Yours faithfully



Mark *****

Can you think of anything else i need to put in there?

[Turboman]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Any news Mark?

[MarkP90]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Hello TM,

I sent the letter away last Thursday so they will probably have only received it today. I'm going to ring them tomorrow to confirm they have it and to see what their thoughts on the matter are. Having looked at the figures if the deductions were in fact added instead, it would be quite close to the £6k figure i recollect paying for insurance premiums at the time of settling the loan, hopefully it has been a 'mistake' (i use inverted commas as i know how sly Northern Rock are - i used to work for them!), although knowing NR and my luck i doubt it'd be something as straight forward as that!

I'll post again once i've heard from them

ATB

Mark

[skv123]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Hello TM,

I sent the letter away last Thursday so they will probably have only received it today. I'm going to ring them tomorrow to confirm they have it and to see what their thoughts on the matter are. Having looked at the figures if the deductions were in fact added instead, it would be quite close to the £6k figure i recollect paying for insurance premiums at the time of settling the loan, hopefully it has been a 'mistake' (i use inverted commas as i know how sly Northern Rock are - i used to work for them!), although knowing NR and my luck i doubt it'd be something as straight forward as that!

I'll post again once i've heard from them

ATB

Mark

This interests me as i've never seen a company work out the 8% interest on what you would have paid for PPI then reduce it based on an early settlement.

I've certainly seen offers reduce because of a rebate on early settlement for the PPI element just not for the 8%. It does seem a less than straightforward way of putting it.

Hopefully they'll deal with your request and Turboman will be able to incredibly helpfully calculate everything for you.

[MarkP90]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Well NRAm finally got around to 'responding' to my letter, with an apology for the mess they made of the above calculation and a re-jigged one which is greater by the princely sum of £3.84?! They didn't supply any of the above data i'd asked for so looks like i'll be re-requesting it!

As a side note the PPI review team cannot be contacted (allegedly) directly either by phone or email, it has to be in writing, is this 'legal'??

[MarkP90]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Well 2 letters and 8 weeks later i've received a copy of my original loan agreements and thats it!! You can't speak/email direct to the people who have the information and its SSSSOOOOOOO frustrating!!! Anyway, my second loan, which was a consolidation loan shows "Loanprotect Loan" of £6112.32, which is the '£6000' i could remember having to pay when i paid my loan off, was this the PPI? Is this information useless without the final settlement figures?

Any help appreciated!!

[Turboman]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Hi Mark

Will look late evening as just going out--Bill might be here soon though

[Bill-K]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Hi Mark. Sorry for the delay, but I've had a look - and as skv123 has remarked, it's a really odd way of calculating PPI redress. Personally, I prefer to get this kind of thing done in writing, as opposed to telecons - but email would be good, I agree !!! So - before we can get an accurate idea of what you should be offered, we need more details, and I think it would be good to insist on a proper explanation of the calculations - as demanded by the FSA rules in the PS 10/12 PPI Redress Handbook. Another option would be to send NRAM a Data Subject Access Request (DSAR) which costs £10, but which they are legally obliged to comply with. This should get you a copy of ALL relevant data they hold on you, and should cover AT LEAST the past 6 years.

Looking at the first loan, it appears that this was 'consolidated' into the second loan after approx. 4 monthly repayments had been made. If that is the case, then the attached 'Loan 1' spreadsheet calculates that you would be entitled to a total PPI refund of approx. £65 from that loan. But, if that loan was settled by consolidation into Loan 2, then we would need to know what the actual settlement amount was - because this amount would have included an amount of PPI which was effectively being carried forward to the new loan.

Looking at Loan 2, it appears that this was settled after 2-3 years, so I have set the attached 'Loan 2' spreadsheet to show 30 monthly repayments as being made before it was settled. Now, the problem we have with this loan is that there is £6112.32 PPI shown in the agreement, and a 'Cash Advance' of £12000. It is possible that the 'Brought Forward' PPI from Loan 1 is included in the £6112.32 PPI amount in Loan 2, but this is not what I would expect. I think we should assume that the £12000 cash advance includes whatever amount was needed to settle Loan 1 - but it would be better to know this for sure.

Anyway, I've taken the figures in Loan 2's agreement at face value, and - if 30 repayments were made on this loan, then I calculate that you should have been offered approx. £3100 JUST to recompense you for the PPI element of the repayments made. If the 'Brought Forward' PPI from Loan 1 is to be added to this, then that amount should be higher.

Finally, if the loan was settled with a final 'lump sum' settlement payment, then the PPI included in THIS payment should also be refunded. This is just a 'first glance' at this, but it sure looks to me as though you should have been offered something in the region of £4000 to £5000.

I hope my thoughts have been of some help here.

[MarkP90]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Thanks for that Bill . Do i need to list the specific information i want from them or if i ask for the DSAR they'll know what that means and they send 'everything'?

Also, it seems to me if the actual amount due to me is significantly greater than their offer, that this is rather underhanded. Do they not have a legal obligation to repay everything due??

Thanks

Mark

[Turboman]

Re: Confused by PPI offer (NRAM/Northern Rock)

Here you go Mark


OUR ADDRESS
YOUR POST TOWN
YOUR POSTCODE

BANKS NAME
BANKS ADDRESS
BANKS POSTCODE

Date

Account No: XXXXXXXX Sort Code: XX XX XX

Dear Sir/Madam

In my original letter to you dated XXXXX I asked for you to supply me with the following so that I could understand your offer of redress:

1/ What the deductions shown on the calculation sheet summary are for, or were they added to my settlement?
2/ The amount of original advance excluding PPI portion (for both accounts)
3/ The amount of PPI single premium insurance in addition to the above (Both accounts)
4/ The monthly premium figure, split between actual payment and PPI premium (Both accounts)
5/ The date of contract and of the first payment (Both accounts)
6/ The number of payments made (Both accounts)
7/ Any missed payments or arrears or overpayments
8/ The settlement figures when I paid off the loan, broken down between loan amount and PPI amount

..and for both accounts:

• A copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement
  
• A copy of the PPI Cancellation conditions (outside the 30 day period)
  
• A copy of the Loan Statements from inception to redemption
• A copy of the original Settlement Letter

However, you have not supplied all this information nor explained fully how you calculated the redress, therefore I am formally issuing you with a Subject Access Reqest


Data Protection Act disclosure request

Under the Data Protection Act 1984 and 1998, and including the right of subject access under these acts, please supply me with all data that your company holds relating to my entire account history. Please include details of all transactions, and a copy of the original contract by which this account is/was governed at the time it was opened including all amendments made to the contract terms since opening the account.

I would also like a schedule of all charges & interest applied to my account(s) including details of any instances that required manual intervention. If you are unable to provide this specific information, copy statements will suffice.

All data, including data held on a microfiche must be provided within a reasonable timescale, a maximum of 40 days.

It seems a lot of banks are also wrongly interpreting the Data Protection Act (DPA) 1998 as a requirement to only disclose six years worth of personal data, and this is also wholly wrong. The DPA clearly states that all information held must be disclosed and it has no correlation to the Limitation act 1980 at all. If you no longer hold data beyond 6 years however, I would like a signed declaration from your data controller and a copy of all documents pertaining to its proper disposal.

Whilst not exhaustive and for the avoidance of doubt I shall list what I require:

* Full copies of all contracts that exist between myself and your organisation; including copies of any documents you hold in support of same.

* Copies of all statements relating to the above accounts.

* Copies of all correspondence, including all letters, faxes, emails and memos sent and received between ourselves, and any other third party in relation to any of the above accounts.

* Copies of any telephone recordings and/or transcripts of these recordings as well as any logs or journals that relate to them.

* Copies of all documents which include any of my personal information including copies of any contracts or invoices, emails or computer records containing my personal information, or any records which pertain to this information.

* Full details and copies of any documents upon which you relied when you have provided my personal or financial information to any individual, organisation or third party.

* Full copies or transcripts of any computer logs or database records kept in relation to myself or in relation to my financial or personal information.

*Details of all systems you currently have in place to ensure my personal or financial information is kept securely, including details of those officers who currently have control of same, and at the time it was held or provided to a third party.

* Where any previous information or records held have been deleted or disposed of, the methods used to do so, including dates, reason for deletion, certificates or references confirming details of destruction. Where you are unable to provide such certificates, please provide a declaration, signed by an authorised officer of your company, confirming the dates and methods of destruction of this data.

I enclose the maximum statutory fee of £10.

You have 40 days to comply with this request.

If you fail to comply fully I shall enter a formal complaint with the Information Commissioners Office which could result in a fine and prosecution.




Yours faithfully,



Your name