Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

[johngee27]

Hi all,

I have been reading a number of threads on here for quite a while and have decided to start requesting CCA's from my credit card companies. I am currently on a debt management plan which I have been paying for a number of years. Reading through the threads from previous years, I believe that there have been various court cases and changes that have resulted in confusing me as to what the current state of play is.

My first question surrounds reconstituted agreements : -

Is the use of a reconstituted agreement sufficient to satisfy my request for a CCA where the card was taken out in 1999 ? A lot of previous posts mention the need for a true copy rather than a recon but has this now changed based on the Carey vs HSBC(2009) ?

The case study I have is based on my request to Capital One. I have sent the standard letter regarding a request for a true copy based on S77/78 of CCA 1974. There response is that it is enforceable as confirmed by the judgement of his honour Judge Waksman QC in Carey v HSBC (2009) and basically they can send a recon.

Reading various forums, I was going to send a CPUTR 2008 letter which basically questions whether they have a copy of the original. some peopel say this is a good course of action and others say of no use.

I am happy to post the recon but would like to take one step at a time and understand my first steps

[judgemental24]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

My understanding is that they can send a recon agreement to satisfy a section 77-79 request, but to enforce it has to be a true copy of the original from existing records/sources

Anything before 2007 they will need the original agreement

They simply cannot just send a blank agreement and hope to enforce unless they can show 100% you have used that credit line on the balance of probabilities

They usual thing where they get it wrong is that they will send a current agreement template to satisfy the request, which was totally different to the one you signed years ago

[johngee27]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

Thanks Judgemental24, that was my understanding, so in other words they would find it difficult to take me to court to enforce ? So my question is whether the CPUTR 2008 letter is a way to get them to admit they do not hold the original.

[judgemental24]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

Have you sent a DSAR TO THE CREDITOR

If no agreement is enclosed then that will be your answer

Will cost you £10.00 though for the priviledge

[johngee27]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

Yes actually sent that first and they sent a massive packet back but there was no CCA in it. So effectively any SAR request should return me the original CCA ?

[MIKE770]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

You have to send CCA1974 request with £1.00 P.O. marked for CCA1974 Purposes on the rear only

they then have 12+ 2 days to respond, it is not automatic in a SAR and they do not have to supply it in a SAR request!

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

Yes actually sent that first and they sent a massive packet back but there was no CCA in it. So effectively any SAR request should return me the original CCA ?

No, someone has just put this question directly to the ICO and their reply was that the agreement itself is not personal data, even when it does contain data about you:

...personal data is defined as information that identifies you or relates to you as an individual. The agreement and the terms and conditions do not identify you, they relate to an account...

There might be personal details on part of the document, however the organisation do not have to provide you with the whole document, simply a copy of the personal details.
So while under the Consumer Credit Act, you would be entitled to the document, under the Data Protection Act, you are only entitled to information about you.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

Thanks Judgemental24, that was my understanding, so in other words they would find it difficult to take me to court to enforce ? So my question is whether the CPUTR 2008 letter is a way to get them to admit they do not hold the original.

This is one of those urban myths that was doing the rounds on the internet a few years ago and some people claimed to have succeeded using this technique. However, on close inspection, you'll find the creditor simply didn't respond or take further action. Making them 'go away' was hailed as a success, however, a direct correlation between sending such letters and the creditors' silence cannot be established. I for one never sent a CPUTR 2008 letter yet I've not heard a peep from my creditors for more than three years.

In reality they have no duty to respond to such letters. :ohwell: Nor can you use failure to respond to argue against the enforceability of the account as you can with a s.77-79 request.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

My understanding is that they can send a recon agreement to satisfy a section 77-79 request, but to enforce it has to be a true copy of the original from existing records/sources

Anything before 2007 they will need the original agreement

This is, once more, a bit of a myth/common misunderstanding. On Carey -v- HSBC it was established that a recon was enough to satisfy a s.77-79 request and the Carey case actually related to pre-2007 agreements: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...recreated-docs

s.77-79 of the CCA have not changed in any way since 2007, it was s.127(3) of the CCA that got repealed with effect from April 2007. S.127(3) prevents a court from enforcing a debt unless there was a proper agreement containing all the prescribed terms to start with, i.e. at the time you opened the account. It had nothing to do with information requests or reconstructed agreements. I've just posted about that a few minutes ago:

I can, however tell you that the bit of legislation that prevented a court from enforcing a debt unless there had been a proper agreement containing all the prescribed terms was repealed with effect from April 2007. :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: That means that, for agreements entered into after that time, the court would have discretion to enforce them even if any terms were missing. :mmph:

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

If you look at the original (enacted version of the CCA it will be here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...on/127/enacted

If you look at the current version of the CCA it's gone: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/127 :mmph:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

My first question surrounds reconstituted agreements : -

Is the use of a reconstituted agreement sufficient to satisfy my request for a CCA where the card was taken out in 1999 ? A lot of previous posts mention the need for a true copy rather than a recon but has this now changed based on the Carey vs HSBC(2009) ?

Yes, a recon satisfies a CCA request since Carey but the recon has to be honest and accurate, i.e. it has to relate to the terms that were in force at the time you took out the account and any variations after that.

The case study I have is based on my request to Capital One. I have sent the standard letter regarding a request for a true copy based on S77/78 of CCA 1974. There response is that it is enforceable as confirmed by the judgement of his honour Judge Waksman QC in Carey v HSBC (2009) and basically they can send a recon.

They can send a recon but being pre-2007 it would also be subject to s.127(3) as posted above, so we need to see what was/wasn't in the agreement at the time you signed it.

Reading various forums, I was going to send a CPUTR 2008 letter which basically questions whether they have a copy of the original. some peopel say this is a good course of action and others say of no use.

See post #8 above.

I am happy to post the recon but would like to take one step at a time and understand my first steps

Yes, that would be the best thing to do as it has to be assessed on its own merits, especially being pre-April 2007. :grin:

[Nibbler]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

Very much worth reading, even if it is on PT2537's old blog.

https://paulatwatsonssolicitors.word...t-arose-today/

[johngee27]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

Hi all, I have attached what Capital one are stating is there reconstituted agreement. It just looks likes terms and conditions with my name and address above which I have blacked out. They state in a cover letter that prior to my signature that I was provided with a full copy of terms of my original agreement to keep and and were sent a further copy of original agreement with my first credit card.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

Very much worth reading, even if it is on PT2537's old blog.

https://paulatwatsonssolicitors.word...t-arose-today/

PT's old blog is a gold mine of useful info. I've still got it bookmarked :yo:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

Hi all, I have attached what Capital one are stating is there reconstituted agreement. It just looks likes terms and conditions with my name and address above which I have blacked out.

Is that your current address or your address back in 1999 when you took out the card?

I notice item 10 goes on and on about "August 2000" so it would seem to indicate those were the terms from when you took out the card, however, being just a Word document, it's not hard to just insert any date there. The rates seem to be the same before and after August 2000 which makes me wonder about the significance of that date. Card providers often offered 0% on balance transfers for a certain period of time but in this case it's 11.39% both before and after August 2000. Not a discounted rate of, say, 6% until that date. :confused2:

They state in a cover letter that prior to my signature that I was provided with a full copy of terms of my original agreement to keep and and were sent a further copy of original agreement with my first credit card.

It's rather odd that they should know all that with such accuracy 16 years after the fact. :flypig: :flypig:

The question is, do you remember what happened when you took out the card? Was it a mailshot? In branch?

[johngee27]

Re: Latest information on Pre 2007 CCA

The address is correct at the time of taking out the card. I cannot remember how I took out the original card as it was so long ago.