Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

[Amethyst]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

T is clearly the date the cheque arrives at the collecting bank - either by paying it in over the counter in the branch, or giving it to the post office to submit (which takes a day or two) or sending it in the post ( which also takes a day or two). So anyway we agree to disagree on that and I've tried many times to demonstrate my view on it... so put that to one side.

If you convince the court that T is the day you gave the cheque to the post office there's the next point - how do you show that the principle of certainty of fate means you have a legal right to the money and the bank have lost any right over it ? ''without consent'' is the sticking point on that issue I think. What happens if you refuse consent ? totally I mean - no arrangement to repay over time - nothing. You keep the money and refuse to return it to the bank. What action is open to the bank ?


(ps. I'm not being judgmental at all - not sure if any of that was aimed at me - Nicola is basically testing a principle - my concern is that the court may see it as fraudulent and that would be the reason that even if it were past T+6 they would find against her (as reasons of fraud are oft quoted in the documentation surrounding cheque clearing for negating the ''money is yours'' sections)

[des8]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

hi

i understand your point @des8, am not really disagreeing , the poster mentioned "am not sure how it comes across to others", i was just adding how i see this from the beginning, I understand the bank/teller may have made a mistake, i just think transfairing it out, when you know its not your funds, shows intent.

Ther T&Cs bit over when it should have gone passed the date they could automatically reclaim it, does not say, the person can keep the money, so i dont understand what the posters justification would be for not repaying it when requested. I have no opinion on what the poster should or shoulnt do, reading through othere people post on this thread, she has had some good advise.

I suppose the other consideration should be, if it goes wrong, how badly can it go wrong for the poster, being ordered to pay it back may not be the limit, In any fight, you have to properly consider the consequences of loosing

Thanks CC.
The only point I would make concerns "when you know its not your funds,".
When certainty of fate kicks in those funds in effect become the depositors, and the bank should not deduct them without the depositor's consent.

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[Nicola Bell]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

wow, it's been busy...

Amethyst,

I have no doubt that T= deposit at the post office so we have to agree to differ on that. on T=0 Raymond Cox says;

"(a) Depositing the cheque and branch processing: T
On, for example, the day of a transaction (T), the payee deposits the cheque at the branch of the collecting bank. Cheques may also be sent by post or, for a large business, be delivered directly to the processing centre of their bank. "

Also, as above the bank says payment "into account" will be delayed by up to 2 business days, that doesn't mean that T is changed, just that it takes longer to be paid into the account and instead of being able to withdraw the money on T=4 as you would if it were paid into a bank, you cannot withdraw the money until T=6. However, either way the second part of your quote shows that after 6 days it is cleared.

Also, if the telling point was the day it showed on the account then the 14th would only have been T=1 not T=2 and either way I
would not have been able to withdraw funds unless they were cleared.

Crazy Council, thanks for joining the thread but in some areas you are going over things that have been covered several times before (so I won't go over them) except for the issue of the bank staff. Are you saying that someone in the cheque clearing team would get his/her wages docked so I shouldn't carry this on for that reason? Also, at the time I took the money out I found it hard to believe that the money could be mine but what I had read by that time suggested it might be true, I thought the only way to answer the question was to test it out in the real world and, to my surprise, I found it was true that I could take the money out!!

Des8, I have read the (whole!) book on unjust enrichment and where issues are covered by contract they simply cannot be considered 'unjust', they can be enrichment but that is not a problem legally as I understand it.

I have nothing to say about issues raised about wrong-doing but my conscience is clear in my case.

thanks to all,

Nicola

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Just saw your latest post Crazy Council but the bank did not ask for it back, they helped themselves at a time they were not allowed to, so I think that this might be their usual response,

[Crazy council]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

hi

i understand your point [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION], am not really disagreeing , the poster mentioned "am not sure how it comes across to others", i was just adding how i see this from the beginning, I understand the bank/teller may have made a mistake, i just think transfairing it out, when you know its not your funds, shows intent.

Ther T&Cs bit over when it should have gone passed the date they could automatically reclaim it, does not say, the person can keep the money, so i dont understand what the posters justification would be for not repaying it when requested. I have no opinion on what the poster should or shoulnt do, reading through othere people post on this thread, she has had some good advise.

I suppose the other consideration should be, if it goes wrong, how badly can it go wrong for the poster, being ordered to pay it back may not be the limit, In any fight, you have to properly consider the consequences of loosing

[EXC]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

I understood this site prided itself on being non judgemental. It certainly isn't judgemental when it comes to supporting eg shoplifters, so why is there from some quarters a sense of disapproval here?

To qualify that we don't support shoplifting but we do support shoplifters (convicted or otherwise) who are the subject of civil demands which we believe are unlawful regardless.

[wales01man]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

I do not condone or support wrongdoing or law breaking I DO support everyones right to a trial in a Court of law not subject to harassment and threats from the likes of RLP im sure everyone on LB agrees.

[des8]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

OK Wales change to support others who admit wrongdoing!!

[wales01man]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

Alleged shoplifters they have not been convicted think this thread is going the way of to many others due to differing opinions.

[des8]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

From http://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/as...ns.pdfwithdraw the money. If you pay a cheque into youraccount via a Post Office® the payment into youraccount will be delayed by up to two Business Days
From http://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/cu...clearing-cycle
Cheques deposited after 4:30 or via the Post Office will be subject to one day's delay

These terms are not contradictory, on top of which the customer was assured that the funds had cleared.
From that viewpoint it can be argued the customer did have an entitlement to the funds


Cleared funds, past T*6, certainty of fate..... all add up to the funds are the customers

Also IMO this is not a matter of morals.
I understood this site prided itself on being non judgemental. It certainly isn't judgemental when it comes to supporting eg shoplifters, so why is there from some quarters a sense of disapproval here?
The courts may decide unjust enrichment has occurred, but that is a different matter from fraud which has not been suggested by the bank.

[Crazy council]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

hi

admittedly, i havent read all the thread, but,

I'm not sure what you mean of how it will appear to others, I can see that the bank has made a costly error, that could be a windfall for me that is all.

You must have known you wasent entitled to the funds, when you transferred them out, and, with these types of mistakes, it will be the cleark or admin worker that takes the consequences, if the bank did, unclear the funds after the time limit, that would probebly have been a manager, trying to correct the mistake of someone under them.

Do you think they will win because they have a case or just because they are the banks?

The checks was cancelled, you transfaired funds you knew did not belong to you,, teh problem your going to face is the actions you took to make it this way.

Did there actions cause you any loss ?

I think re-fairing it to a windfall is a bit of a stretch as well, banks tend to be ruthless to employees that have made mistakes that cost them. I bet that person would not call it a windfall.

Sorry to seem so blunt, but i would imagine any adjudicator is going to consider the same things.

[Amethyst]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?



T is the 7th

[Amethyst]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

Nope xx

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

I'm a bit lost, T is the transaction day, i.e. the day that the transaction happened, as explained in Kati's reference to Mr Cox

"(a) Depositing the cheque and branch processing: TOn, for example, the day of a transaction (T), the payee deposits the cheque at the branch ofthe collecting bank. Cheques may also be sent by post or, for a large business, be delivereddirectly to the processing centre of their bank."

In my case T must be the 5th, there is no other way to define the process that I am aware of. The bank can add an extra day/s, but either way, T=0 is the 5th, can we agree on that at least?

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

this doesn't really make sense to me, there's no reason to think it arrived at the bank on the 7th? off out to lunch back soon

[Amethyst]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

That's my memory on days .... here T+5 not T+4 but still before T+6 which wasn't until Monday. ( and T+4 is the relevance as thats 'available for withdrawal day )

Weds 5th - Deposit to post office
Thurs 6th -
Friday 7th - received at bank ( T day )
s
s
Monday 10th -
tue 11th - - T+2
wed 12th -
thu 13th - T+4
fri 14th -
s ----------------- took out money?
s
mon 17th - T+6
tue 18th -


The bank saying it was T+2 in their defence is just ballhooks either way - you did the transfer on the saturday (?) so if the cheque was T on the 13th t+2 would have been on Monday 17th (which is when the transfer shows on your account) - but you are arguing against the banks defence - however I think you are arguing too far the other way in treating Weds 5th as T - as it is quite clear in the terms that cheques paid in at PO have two bus days before T.