Can the bank ‘UNCLEAR’ cleared funds?

[Amethyst]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

The system is there to protect people from getting into the position you got in - where the funds were removed without any notice. However you knew the cheque paid in on the 5th was cancelled, and you knew the second cheque had only been paid in on the 13th.

The 2-4-6 is only industry guidance not legislative as far as I can make out - The Bills of Exchange Act 1882, and the Cheques Acts of 1957 and 1992.

Had the cheque been payment for something, like a car, that you had released to a purchaser once the cheque had cleared and been withdrawn, then I'd probably be more in agreement with you, as you'd have LOST the £35k BECAUSE of the banks actions and what they told you - and I feel that the FOS would also have been in agreement with you there - and the bank would have to go after the payee to get the money. However, you still had the £35k off of your mother, you knew the first cheque had been cancelled, the second cheque was well within the 6 days, and the cock up by the bank caused some inconvenience and hassle which the FOS ordered you be compensated for.


HSBC http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/2/contact-an...heque-clearing

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

I don't deny I may be wrong, but I haven't seen any convincing legal basis for that view yet. I am genuinely exploring the issue.

You do seem to agree that the bank did not have the right to remove the funds from my account, can I ask why you take that view if you think that I owed the money?

Honestly, I didn't remove the money until the bank had convinced me - in very forceful terms - that the funds were cleared and mine permanantly. I told them this must be nonsense, the bank knew that the cheque had been stopped but they assured me that under the rules the funds were mine. If the bank would make the tape available you would be able to hear for yourself.

I took another look at the link you gave before and that seems to be for business accounts and mine is a personal account, so the terms you quoted would not apply.

[Amethyst]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

But you cancelled the first cheque - well your Mother did - so you knew it had been cancelled and wouldn't go through ?

Anyway that aside I think you are wrong

Once the 6/8 days are passed and the cheque cleared, the funds are mine and as far as I can see the bank has no right to take them back.

The bank has no right to automatically remove the funds from your account - it doesn't mean they are yours - just the bank can't just remove them from your account and would need to organise repayment of the sum with you.

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

hi,

the relevant cheque is the first cheque, paid in on the 5th. The second cheque is not really relevant to the issue at all (except that it could explain the action of the bank in clearing the funds from the first cheque).

The issue is that the first cheque had cleared and so following the rules, I believe they are mine even though this would constitute a windfall. Once the 6/8 days are passed and the cheque cleared, the funds are mine and as far as I can see the bank has no right to take them back. That is what the 6/8 day rules are about.

I'm not sure if this will come out but I've put below the extract from the 18th

	[IMG]file:///C:\Users\chris\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip _image001.gif[/IMG]	[IMG]file:///C:\Users\chris\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip _image002.gif[/IMG]	[IMG]file:///C:\Users\chris\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip _image003.gif[/IMG] [IMG]file:///C:\Users\chris\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip _image004.gif[/IMG]
	Tuesday 18 December 2012
Recent Items [IMG]file:///C:\Users\chris\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip _image005.gif[/IMG] CURRENT ACCOUNT Account Balance £9027.00 CR Overdraft Limit £ 0.00 Available Balance £9027.00 CR (Available balance does not include your agreed overdraft limit) 17/12/2012 TFR ************* £35000.00 17/12/2012 TFR ************* £25.00 17/12/2012 UNPAID £35000.00 14/12/2012 000000 CREDIT £35000.00 *Last Statement* - £44052.00 CR and on the 19th CURRENT ACCOUNT Account Balance £25973.00 DR Overdraft Limit £ 0.00 Available Balance £25973.00 DR (Available balance does not include your agreed overdraft limit) 19/12/2012 UNPAID £35000.00 17/12/2012 TFR *********** £35000.00 17/12/2012 TFR ********** £25.00 17/12/2012 UNPAID £35000.00 14/12/2012 000000 CREDIT £35000.00 *Last Statement* - £44052.00 CR

I don't know if this helps,

happy Christmas to you too:reindeer:

[Amethyst]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

So why are we working on the basis the cheque was paid in on the 5th ?

If the cheque paid in on the 5th was cancelled then you knew it would not be clearing into your account. Regardless of what the computer said you knew it was not going to be paid.

The cheque paid in on the 13th is the one we're bothered about. That one bounced and you'd taken the funds out before the 6 days. Therefore they had every right to take the money back out of your account.

Unless I'm just incredibly confused lol.

Anyway, Merry Christmas xxxx

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

hi, second cheque was paid in on the 13th, same day the other one was cancelled,

unfortunately I have to go out now but will be back, thanks for your interest, appreciate your thoughts and will respond latermashappy:

[Amethyst]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

Yes I'd agree with you there.

What date did you pay in the cheque which was subsequently cancelled ?

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

hi,

just seen your link, sorry! Had a look at the page but in my case the cheque was not shown on the account until the 14th, so if these were the rules, the cheque would not have cleared until the 28th of December - given the bank hols. In any event these would not override the T&Cs would they?

[Amethyst]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

Because you paid it in at the Post Office on the 5th ?


What day did the cheque first show on your account btw ( should be on your statement - actually it might help everyone if you post up a copy of your statement ( irrelevant bits removed of course))

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

hello Amethyst,

can I ask why you say it was received at bank on the 7th?

[Amethyst]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

Amethyst, you said that
T is the day the cheque is received by the financial institution and credited to the account, can I ask what makes you say that?

http://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/bu...clearing-cycle


Judging by that page...

Weds 5th - Deposit to post office
Thurs 6th -
Friday 7th - received at bank ( T day )
s
s
Monday 10th -
tue 11th - - T+2
wed 12th -
thu 13th - T+4
fri 14th -
s
s
mon 17th - T+6
tue 18th - can use funds and be sure they won't be taken out of the account if the cheque bounces ( still would owe the money but they couldn't just take it back they'd have to arrange for you to repay it)

[spirit2534]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

Just a note of appreciation.

In today's world to find people who are not motivated by greed, by thoughts of personal gain but just wish to help others.

That does seem to be the essence of what Legal Beagles is about.:carolers:

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

Amethyst, you said that
T is the day the cheque is received by the financial institution and credited to the account, can I ask what makes you say that?

Also, to answer an earlier question that I have just seen, yes the £35,000 was paid, there was no loss to me,

Nicola

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

Des8,

thank you for your interpretation, I will assume that you are right.

Nicola

[Nicola Bell]

Re: Hello Lovely People!

hello Amethyst,

Thanks for your view on this.

The T&Cs do not mention a time for deposits for payments made through the post office, only for payments made through the bank itself. The actual day of deposit was Wednesday 5th of December 2012, so Thursday 6th is day 2, Friday 7th would be day 3, Monday 10th would be day 4, Tuesday 11th would be day 5, Wednesday 12th would be day 6, Thursday 13th would be day 7, Friday 14th would be day 8,
The funds were only removed after that.
regards,
Chris

regards,

Nicola