estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

[charitynjw]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

Another defense could be the equitable maxim of laches.
Vigilantibus non dormientibus aequitus subvenit
Equity aids the vigilant, not the sleeping ones (those sleeping on their rights).

This could be pertinent, especially since HIPS was abolished via the Localism Act 2011

[josh]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

Does the form itself contain any information as to cooling off period?

Its does contain a section for cooling off of 7 days, and then they have a box which states if you wish the cooling period to be disregarded initial the box, the box seems now to be initialled, but as I have said we signed the forms on 18/05/10 and then cancelled the contract on 20/05/2010 - they state the contract was not cancellable in any event as the cooling off period is not relevant - so this is one issue!


There is no such document.

As Bluebottle points out, if they are issuing fake claim forms (or genuine forms unissued by the court), this is a serious offence. The sending of lookalike court forms is highly questionable (a test case is awaited), and not unknown. The intention is to intimidate.

they have issued a document from the website, which in the box where the number of the claim should be states DRAFT COPY, they then attached the form to a copy of the agreement from 2010, with a letter stating this is our claim pay up or we will issue the claim in 7 days, that was on 3/12/13 so I sent a email to them confirming I do not accept the claim and it will be defended, as they have not taken into account the 7 days cancellation period or the fact that we cancelled two days into that period - they say its irrelevant as we have no right to cancel?

costs' is another one of the threats that people of this type routinely employ.


They waited 3 years before filing a claim. Is there any prior correspondence in which they demand payment, threaten further steps, and so on? If not, the court would take a very dim view of this.

there is correspondence from 2012 where they were advised that the claim for the money is vexatious as the HIPS were cancelled and we had cancelled the agreement within 7 days, we heard nothing for 14 Months and then on 27/10/2013 they sent the Draft court claim from NCC bulk centre, prepared on line, again this as stated was used as a threat, what do I do about taking this matter further?

If your signature was forged, this is a serious matter.

they are a joke, as we never sold the property through them, cancelled their contract and also informed them of this, they now rely on a box which has questionable initials in the area which they state invalidate the 7 days cooling off period, not a signature just initials, why would we agree to something so blatantly stupid, and then cancel two days later, if we knew HIPS may be abolished. we noted this on the form in our handwriting, they disregard this too


It is a fact that many estate agents get up to all sorts of tricks with contracts. Pre-ticking boxes buried in the small print for expensive and unwanted add-ons is commonplace. Both myself and several friends have personal experience of this with WH Brown, another Sequence front.


A cooling off period is exactly what it says.


If both sign, both are liable. If however, they have stated in writing that they do not hold your brother liable, that is all to the good.


it just seems odd why and how they can just claim against me, when the document states both of us to be joint owners, the fact is my brother is not in the country anymore so I presume they know I have a property so are chasing just me, is this allowed ?

You could try for a strike-out (there is a fee for the application), but I suspect that this would not be successful. Successful strike-outs usually require that the claim be utterly ludicrous.


The reference to 7 days is another attempt to intimidate.


In theory, they may have a point, as you contracted for a service. The fact that the government then rendered that service redundant is irrelevant.

I agree, but the true facts are we cancelled within the 7 days cooling off period, only after they refused to allow us to do this have we now been left in limbo until now, it was not a coincidence that the HIPS were abolished two days later, they must have been aware of this, or why are they so adamant that the cooling off period is irrelevant, to make sure that they get payment for a obsolete HIPS certificate, we also noted on the agreement the HIPS may be abolished soon, they are disregarding this as well.

The fact also is that they are now making continued attempts to litigate for a debt from 3 years ago, when the contract was cancelled, they knew this and then issue a DRAFT court claim, again this was a threat we would have acted on if we did not have the good people on this web site to advise us, how many poor people are they threatening or have done so in the past, if this is illegal then should I also be addressing this now?

THANK YOU

[Gorang]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

Just another thought on this

I have no knowledge of things like this, but one thing did come to mind, so I wonder if it could be used to your advantage

As Bluebottle points out, if they are issuing fake claim forms (or genuine forms unissued by the court), this is a serious offence. The sending of lookalike court forms is highly questionable (a test case is awaited), and not unknown. The intention is to intimidate. Some muppet did that in Devon and was sent down for 12 months. The offence of Pretending to Be Acting Under the Authority of A Court is an indictable offence and carries a maximum penalty, on conviction, of a term of imprisonment not exceeding 7 years. The offence is committed by whoever fabricated the court document(s) in question. There is no provision as to corporate liability.

If view of this, and if anyone has actually signed the draft copy

Then would the Legal Ombudsman not be VERY interested in this????
http://www.legalombudsman.org.uk/abo...eme-rules.html

If you think they would be interested, then would it be worth sending one last letter, stating what you do know/suspect, give them one more chance to REVIEW their actions, and make them aware, depending on their response to your letter, then they may not/will leave you, with no choice, other than, starting a complain with the Legal Ombudsman

O and I would point out in the letter, that a handwriting expert could confirm that the Initials were forged

I just wonder if the threat of going to the LO will make them back down

I do ask that others with knowledge of these type things please correct me if this is not possible in this case, as I do NOT want to confuse anyone

[enquirer]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

Write to them, (send Recorded Delivery), clearly setting out the points already made (forged initials, cooling off clause voided thereby, HIPS abolished days later, 3 years, etcetera). Make it plain that a genuine claim will be defended to the bitter end.

Write on the assumption that a judge who knows nothing will be reading it later. Do not mark it 'without prejudice' (has any of their correspondence been so marked?), as you may want to produce it later in court.

If they are stupid enough to actually issue a claim (if they were that confident, they would have normally have done so years ago. Perhaps they are now having a cash flow problem), then a clearly set out defense and an articulate presentation should be sufficient to see them off.

The main thing now is to keep your nerve. :thumb:

[josh]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

Hi again thank you for your help -

I have just had this response by email for the two emails below, so don't know what their compliance department will do??

Good Afternoon.

I can confirm I have forwarded your emails and file on to our Compliance department, who will respond to you in writing.

Kind Regards


I have sent them the following two emails;

SEQUENCE DEBT RECOVERY
Sequence (UK) Limited
Cumbria House, 16-20 Hockliffe Street
Leighton Buzzard
Bedfordshire
LU7 1GN


ILLEGAL DRAFT DOCUMENT - PURPORTING TO BE FROM COURT

I understand you have issued a legal document purporting to be a Court claim in Draft, this is illegal.

We are now taking legal advice in this matter and will report you and your Company for issuing Court documents on the pretence of them being issued from the court, THIS IS INTENTIONAL ABUSE OF THE COURT SYSTEM this complaint will now be in addition to any counter claims we have to prepare, once your court claim is issued.

We also understand it is a Criminal offence which has been committed and not Civil issue so will contact the appropriate agency to investigate and make formal arrangement's to conclude and deal with the person/s involved.

Your threatening court document is against the OFT guidelines for debt collection and as a result you will be reported to them too.

Kind regards


and
N244 APPLICATION FOR DEFENCE LITIGATION COSTS

As we have failed to receive a adequate response from you regarding the concerns we have raised, we must now notify you that the contract which you have submitted to us as part of your purported claim is void and unenforceable under the following regulations:

The Cancellation of Contracts made in a Consumer’s Home or Place of Work etc. Regulations 2008 ;Sec 15.

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008: Part 2; Sec 7.

We have no further comments to make and will counterclaim for all quantifiable damages once you have issued the claim.

We trust that you now have sufficient warning of costs, we will be seeking through Court for your submission of the vexatious claim against Mr X XXXXX

[PlanB]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

Was the HIP actually carried out and if so on what date? At the time you signed the contract HIPs and EPCs were a legal requirement before a property could be marketed with sanctions against the estate agent for non compliance with the law. Most agents would have got the HIP/EPC commissioned/done within 24 hours of signing a sales agreement. The date is important because if it was before you cancelled then I would say you are in difficulty with your argument.

It's unlikely that you would have signed a "HIP's agreement". Do you mean that you signed a sales contract with an estate agent and opted for the HIP to be provided by the agent because you were either not able to provide one of your own (previously acquired) or because you wanted to shop around for your own HIP's provider at a lower price?

No one new in advance that the Government was going to scrap HIPs least of all the specially trained EPC surveyors some of whom got compensation as a result. It was a surprise and shock announcement.

Your HIP would have contained the EPC which is valid for 10 years. This is still a necessary legal requirement for rental properties. Your HIP is not totally obsolete.

Did you subsequently sell the property through the same agent? If so then on the day of completion your solicitor would have paid them their fees direct to them subject to an invoice which is normally sent to the solicitor on exchange of contracts (typically 28 days before completion). In which case how did this single item get left off the bill?

Is this the first you've heard about this bill in three years or have you been arguing about it all along. It's unusual to send out a Letter Before Claim (which is what this seems to be) without any previous dialogue.

Sequence Homes is a member of The Property Ombudsman. You can refer a complaint about the agency to them for any dispute that has occurred in the last 12 months. If this is the first time you've been made aware of this problem you may still be able to make the complaint even though the 'event' took place 3 years ago. Here is how to do it:

http://www.tpos.co.uk/make_complaint_sales.htm

Before you do that you need to make a formal complaint to the estate agent. You can download a PDF of Sequence's Complaints Procedure here:

http://www.sequencehome.co.uk/contact-us/

[josh]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

hope this was ok. to do! I have just about had enough of them, shall I report the illegal document issue to the courts/police or wait as I don't want them to do the same kind of stuff to anyone else, they are B@3iou'ds, excuse the anger

[PlanB]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

If view of this, and if anyone has actually signed the draft copy

Then would the Legal Ombudsman not be VERY interested in this????
http://www.legalombudsman.org.uk/abo...eme-rules.html

If you think they would be interested, then would it be worth sending one last letter, stating what you do know/suspect, give them one more chance to REVIEW their actions, and make them aware, depending on their response to your letter, then they may not/will leave you, with no choice, other than, starting a complain with the Legal Ombudsman

O and I would point out in the letter, that a handwriting expert could confirm that the Initials were forged

I just wonder if the threat of going to the LO will make them back down

The Legal Ombudsman Service only deals with complaints about solicitors you have instructed to act for you (i.e. the OP's own solicitor). It does not deal with the conduct of the opposition's solicitor or legal representative.

[bluebottle]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

If the estate agent knew HIPS was about to be abolished, they and Sequence could have some difficult questions to answer.

Offences under Section 135, County Courts 1984 are indictable offences, which means the police would have to deal with the matter. I would, however, speak to H.M. Courts & Tribunals Service (HMCTS) and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) before involving the police.

[PlanB]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

Would I defend thisclaim as a vexatious claim and an abuse of the court process and are the debt collection department allowed to issue a DRAFT court claim form, to extractmoney from us by using this as a threat to litigate?

There is nothing unlawful about sending out a draft county court claim form. If it is the proper NI form then that's perfectly acceptable. If it was a fake then that would be a different matter.

As you will see in this link from the highly respectable charity Shelter (note my avatar ) this is common practice for collecting all sorts of debts. Click on the PDF link to the template LBA *Inform Landlord of court action* (top right on this website link) and you will see that's exactly the same process as recommended by the charity.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_ad...posit_returned

[josh]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

Was the HIP actually carried out and if so on what date? At the time you signed the contract HIPs and EPCs were a legal requirement before a property could be marketed with sanctions against the estate agent for non compliance with the law. Most agents would have got the HIP/EPC commissioned/done within 24 hours of signing a sales agreement. The date is important because if it was before you cancelled then I would say you are in difficulty with your argument.

Well we were never informed that they had completed the HIPS Report only in 2012 they wrote to confirm that it was now available and we owed them £449, at that time we informed them it had been cancelled, they then left the matter alone, until October 2013, when they said we owed them a bill of 299 + vat, so I don't know how they assumed this, the property was signed for marketing on 18/05 and cancelled on 20/05

It's unlikely that you would have signed a "HIP's agreement". Do you mean that you signed a sales contract with an estate agent and opted for the HIP to be provided by the agent because you were either not able to provide one of your own (previously acquired) or because you wanted to shop around for your own HIP's provider at a lower price?

yes they provided a FREE HIPS report and if we signed the document and used their legal services then we paid nothing, however the property was not sold through them as it was withdrawn, it was sold 4 months later privately to the next door neighbour.

No one new in advance that the Government was going to scrap HIPs least of all the specially trained EPC surveyors some of whom got compensation as a result. It was a surprise and shock announcement.

Your HIP would have contained the EPC which is valid for 10 years. This is still a necessary legal requirement for rental properties. Your HIP is not totally obsolete.

Did you subsequently sell the property through the same agent? If so then on the day of completion your solicitor would have paid them their fees direct to them subject to an invoice which is normally sent to the solicitor on exchange of contracts (typically 28 days before completion). In which case how did this single item get left off the bill?


No it was sold privately and we had to obtain a EPC certificate at the cost of £140 which we paid the new solicitor, all fees were deducted from that for the services that solicitor provided as we had cancelled the contract of sale with Sequence.
Is this the first you've heard about this bill in three years or have you been arguing about it all along. It's unusual to send out a Letter Before Claim (which is what this seems to be) without any previous dialogue.

The first time was in 2012, 18 months after the contract was cancelled - then we disputed it nothing then came from them until the bill of £299+vat, in October 2013 since then it has again been disputed and we are not any wiser.

Sequence Homes is a member of The Property Ombudsman. You can refer a complaint about the agency to them for any dispute that has occurred in the last 12 months. If this is the first time you've been made aware of this problem you may still be able to make the complaint even though the 'event' took place 3 years ago. Here is how to do it:

http://www.tpos.co.uk/make_complaint_sales.htm

Before you do that you need to make a formal complaint to the estate agent. You can download a PDF of Sequence's Complaints Procedure here:

http://www.sequencehome.co.uk/contact-us/

They have now sent the file to their compliance department as noted above so any advice would be appreciated

[CleverClogs]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

wrong thread...

[CleverClogs]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

Perhaps they are now having a cash flow problem

That thought had also crossed my mind - I recall the Statutory Demands sent out by Karl Nolan to people who owed nothing whatever to his companies.

[enquirer]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

There is nothing unlawful about sending out a draft county court claim form.

Sending out lookalike documents is sailing very close to the wind. A test case is awaited in order to see just how close it needs to be before it's a 'fake'. I suspect that including something like the court service logo might be sufficient.

[CleverClogs]

Re: estate agent causing serious problems over Scrapped HIPS contract

It could also be intimidatory if done by a debt collecting company, which would seem to contravene OFT guidelines.