Collective or solo responsibility?

[SteveEX9]

Hi, thanks in advance for any help. My query is as follows:

I have a large debt that is an old loan from Northern Rock. They have sold the loan to a company called Marlin who have demanded that I fill in an income and expenditure statement in order to assess what they think I should pay them monthly.
I am currently registered as a sole trader to avoid having a gap in my CV but I have no actual income and therefore can not make payments. However the I and E form asks about other household income and I do live with my girlfriend. Can they demand that she pays as we live together? Am I even obliged to complete the form or is it just advisable to? The debts were accrued before we met and the house is hers. I am also concerned that they may go to court if I say I can't pay anything, but I have no assets anyway. The other option I have considered is personal bankruptcy to get rid of all outstanding debts including this one.

[enquirer]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

Can they demand that she pays as we live together?

Despite what they might say - No.

Am I even obliged to complete the form or is it just advisable to?

You don't have to, but it might work in your favour if you do (no assets, etcetera). However, if you provide details of her income (which is none of their business), it may encourage them to put pressure on you to make her pay. They might even approach her directly.

The debts were accrued before we met and the house is hers.

Although they have no right to do so, they may try and go after the house. It might be an idea to register with the Land Registry alert system.

I am also concerned that they may go to court if I say I can't pay anything, but I have no assets anyway.

Quite possibly, but as you have no assets, it would do them no good (in fact, if you could show the court that they knew you had no assets, this would go down very badly with the court).

[SteveEX9]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

Thanks so much - very reassuring and I'll proceed as you suggest.
What is the Land Registry alert system btw?
At the back of my mind I think personal bankruptcy may ultimately be the only solution though.

[enquirer]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

What is the Land Registry alert system btw?

If someone starts meddling with the Title, they alert you.

At the back of my mind I think personal bankruptcy may ultimately be the only solution though.

Perhaps, but it's not a route to go down without careful thought.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

I have a large debt that is an old loan from Northern Rock.

Can you give us some more details, when you say 'large', how large is it? Over £25k? Was this an unsecured loan? When did you take it out? How long ago did you default on it?

They have sold the loan to a company called Marlin who have demanded that I fill in an income and expenditure statement in order to assess what they think I should pay them monthly.
I am currently registered as a sole trader to avoid having a gap in my CV but I have no actual income and therefore can not make payments.

Although not strictly relevant to the loan, did you register as a sole trader just for that purpose? Because on your CV you can put anything: unemployed, travelling, homemaker, carer, freelancer, etc. Registering as a sole trader doesn't mean you are engaged in any activity, while you could also be engaged in activities that you could include on your CV without being registered as a sole trader, such as volunteering or any type of unpaid work, being a treasurer of a local group or association, etc.

However the I and E form asks about other household income and I do live with my girlfriend. Can they demand that she pays as we live together? Am I even obliged to complete the form or is it just advisable to? The debts were accrued before we met and the house is hers.

Only a court can demand an I&E form from you, so no, you don't have to submit one, unless it works to your advantage. If the debt is in your sole name, your girlfriend has no obligation to pay, nor can they obtain a charge on a house that belongs solely to her.

I am also concerned that they may go to court if I say I can't pay anything, but I have no assets anyway. The other option I have considered is personal bankruptcy to get rid of all outstanding debts including this one.

Even a court can't order you to pay what you haven't got. :nono: It would be useful if you told us a bit more about your other debts as well as this one. Bankruptcy is usually a last resort, there are people on here with a whooping £150k worth of debt :scared: :scared: who haven't taken that route. It all depends on the nature of your debts rather than the amounts. Certain debts may be worth going bankrupt for but not others.

[SteveEX9]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

Thanks Flaming Parrot - you raise some interesting and much appreciated points. To address them:

1. I have a 15k unsecured loan with NR as described above. It was taken out around four years ago I think, though sadly not over six years ago (I am aware of the statute bar rule). Along with several other debts I was persuaded around three years ago that I could 'sell' this one to a third party company who would take them on my behalf. I did so, also selling a number of credit card debts as well to them. This meant that for two years I made no payment on any of those debts believing that I had sold them. This turned out to be fraudulent and approximately a year ago I began repaying nominal amounts to all the debts except this one as I simply stalled on it if I'm honest due to my minimal income. Therefore in total it is around three years since I made a payment against this loan.

2. To cut to the chase I currently have around 45k of debt in total of which 30k is credit cards and 15k is the above. I have no income and no assets in my name except a car worth about £800-1000. I live with my girlfriend in her house in her name (she's owned it for twenty years) and I have lived here two years. I have earned around £400 per month this financial year so have made nominal payments of about £50 per month against the credit card debts but none against this loan. I no longer have any income however so technically can pay none of the above.

3. To answer re the sole trader / cv question I registered as a sole trader simply to appear to have no employment gaps - it had no reasons related to my debts.

4. In terms of the way forward I have been advised by a solicitor (who would require 2k to enact it) that personal bankruptcy is my best option and that this will write off the debts in a year's time. I believe I can do it myself for £700 via local courts but I'm unsure of the pros and cons of bankruptcy (I'm led to believe that a first one is light touch treatment?). Without an income I am going to struggle to continue to make any payments to any creditors anyway let alone add this one to them. I have no formal agreements with creditors, just agreed nominal payments.

5. Sorry it's long winded - trying to cover a lot, but any further advice appreciated, specifically:

Now that I have no income how should I deal with creditors?
Or is it better just to go bankrupt and start the new year afresh and debt free?
I do not want to get my gf or her property dragged into this basically, and am aware that if I declare her income on an expenditure and income form that creditors may try to cajole her into paying whilst I seek employment.

Thanks.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

Thanks Flaming Parrot - you raise some interesting and much appreciated points. To address them:

1. I have a 15k unsecured loan with NR as described above. It was taken out around four years ago I think, though sadly not over six years ago (I am aware of the statute bar rule). Along with several other debts I was persuaded around three years ago that I could 'sell' this one to a third party company who would take them on my behalf. I did so, also selling a number of credit card debts as well to them. This meant that for two years I made no payment on any of those debts believing that I had sold them. This turned out to be fraudulent and approximately a year ago I began repaying nominal amounts to all the debts except this one as I simply stalled on it if I'm honest due to my minimal income. Therefore in total it is around three years since I made a payment against this loan.

This is most interesting! Would you care to tell us who you 'sold' them to? Was it the Rankines by any chance? I was very close to 'selling' them some of my debts around 4 years ago, when they had their credit card killer site where they advertised "we buy your benefit".

2. To cut to the chase I currently have around 45k of debt in total of which 30k is credit cards and 15k is the above. I have no income and no assets in my name except a car worth about £800-1000. I live with my girlfriend in her house in her name (she's owned it for twenty years) and I have lived here two years. I have earned around £400 per month this financial year so have made nominal payments of about £50 per month against the credit card debts but none against this loan. I no longer have any income however so technically can pay none of the above.

Would you care to tell us a bit more about those other debts? If you took them out before April 2007, there is a chance they may be unenforceable. :thumb:

3. To answer re the sole trader / cv question I registered as a sole trader simply to appear to have no employment gaps - it had no reasons related to my debts.

I didn't think it had any connection with your debts, that's why I said it was slightly off-topic. I was thinking more along the lines of having to do tax returns, etc. even when you have no income. I'm a company director so I know all about having to keep HMRC informed.

4. In terms of the way forward I have been advised by a solicitor (who would require 2k to enact it) that personal bankruptcy is my best option and that this will write off the debts in a year's time. I believe I can do it myself for £700 via local courts but I'm unsure of the pros and cons of bankruptcy (I'm led to believe that a first one is light touch treatment?). Without an income I am going to struggle to continue to make any payments to any creditors anyway let alone add this one to them. I have no formal agreements with creditors, just agreed nominal payments.

You are right in saying you can do it yourself without forking out £2k for a solicitor, you don't need legal advice to declare BR. You can get all the help you need from free places such as the CAB.

Most bankrupts are discharged after 12 months but your bankruptcy stays on the public record for 6 years and it may affect your ability not only to obtain credit but also to obtain employment amongst other things. The main advantage is that it's all over rather quickly, however, it's not a quick fix, it's a last resort. If the solicitor in question is going to charge you £2k for something that normally costs in the region of £700, it's not surprising that he should be advising you to go BR. He doe$n't exactly have your best interests at heart but hi$ own!

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

Now that I have no income how should I deal with creditors?

To be able to answer that question, it would be useful if you could tell us a bit more about them, such as:

• Type of debt (credit card, loan, catalogue, etc.)
• Original lender (bank)
• Current owner (bank or sold to a debt purchaser)
• Approx. amount outstanding
• Approx. start date
• Approx. date last paid
• Did you have PPI?
• Are you being chased for the debt? If so, by who?
• Did you receive a default notice and/or notice of assignment (if applicable)?
• Have you sent a CCA request to any of them?
• Anything else that could be useful

Or is it better just to go bankrupt and start the new year afresh and debt free?

As I said above, I'd leave that as a last resort.

I do not want to get my gf or her property dragged into this basically, and am aware that if I declare her income on an expenditure and income form that creditors may try to cajole her into paying whilst I seek employment.

If the debts are in you sole name, there's no reason why she should be dragged into this. If your name is not on the mortgage/land registry, they can't secure the debt against a property you do not own. You have no obligation to submit an I&E statement either, only a court has the right to demand one. :thumb:

[SteveEX9]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

Thanks again for the above and I will dig out the info mentioned and post it. But yes it was Basil Rankin initially and it worked until he was jailed for fraud and I realised what had happened. A second company was involved also with other debts but it closed after government advice/threats which is when I began nominal payments to most of the creditors.

One last thing though, my concern re the house also extends to bailiffs i.e.whilst security against the house cannot be pursued I am also concerned that bailiffs could gain entry and take away property that is hers - virtually all of it is. Is that possible?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

Thanks again for the above and I will dig out the info mentioned and post it. But yes it was Basil Rankin initially and it worked until he was jailed for fraud and I realised what had happened. A second company was involved also with other debts but it closed after government advice/threats which is when I began nominal payments to most of the creditors.

Ah, yes, it all sounds familiar. I went to their website, having seen the Panorama program in 2008. I didn't think scammers would appear on Panorama! :scared: I reckon it all started well, their story was that they themselves had managed to have some of their debts ruled unenforceable in court due to paperwork defects. At that time, thousands of agreements were taken to court to be ruled unenforceable, usually by claims management companies that advertised in magazines and cold-called you at home. The Carey case put a stop to all that. It is often quoted as an argument against the idea of accounts being unenforceable, the one thing everyone forgets is that Carey was the CLAIMANT, not the defendant.:juge:

I went to the card killer site in 2009 and was going to 'sell' my MBNA account - the one with the highest balance and a whooping 36% interest! I was told I'd get a discount for a second account. I sent MBNA a CCA request to have my agreement checked to see if it could be ruled unenforceable, MBNA responded quite quickly saying they couldn't find anything! I guess I was saved from the Rankines by MBNA, if there was no agreement, the account would be unenforceable anyway!

The second company, was it Cartel by any chance? Or their own Momentum Network?

One last thing though, my concern re the house also extends to bailiffs i.e.whilst security against the house cannot be pursued I am also concerned that bailiffs could gain entry and take away property that is hers - virtually all of it is. Is that possible?

In a word, NO!

When you read stories about bailiffs, they relate mostly to council tax and fines rather than consumer debts. In theory it is possible for creditors to apply for a warrant of execution to send bailiffs round, however that can only happen AFTER OBTAINING A CCJ, without a CCJ, they can't just send bailiffs (unlike councils, who can obtain a liability order for unpaid council tax). In reality, bailiffs are hardly ever used as a way to enforce CCJs, and even then, there is no obligation to let them in and they can't force entry either. They can only levy on goods if they are allowed in or they can gain peaceful entry through, say, an unlocked door or window. But this is all academic at this stage, first you'd have to receive a court claim, where you'd have the opportunity to defend or settle, they'd have to win and obtain judgment in their favour, at which point you could offer to pay what you can afford, even just £1/month. If no payments are forthcoming, the creditor will have to go back to the court to apply for further enforcement. As you can see, you won't have a bailiff at the door any time soon.

You may get threats of visits (and, on the odd occasion, an actual visit) by a debt collector, but those people are NOT bailiffs, and they have no more right to be at your door than the neighbour's dog! :beagle2222:

[SteveEX9]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

You are doing wonders for my stress level reduction - cheers!

The second company was indeed Momentum.

I don't believe that any of the debts were taken out before April 2007 sadly. However, a Mint credit card dates from around that time so I will double check.

I requested a CCA regarding Northern Rock and it came through valid. This was via McKenzie Hall on behalf of RBS. Once validated RBS sold all responsibility for collecting the debt to Marlin. This is a loan. I have NOT requested a CCA for any of the other outstanding debts.

All other debts - around 35k - are credit cards (Barclaycard, Egg, Mint, Lloyd's TSB) and a loan from Lloyd's TSB. None have been sold on but all are being pursued by DCAs on behalf of the various creditors involved and so far I have been making nominal payments to them via informal agreements which were agreed by written - electronically signed - letters.

I have received several default notices on some of them.

I have never taken out PPI to my knowledge. However, I have also been told that were I to double check by engaging a company to do it, then any PPI would go to creditors in full and I would have to pay the company that checked myself rather than from the PPI.

I will ill look for further info as you request. Thanks.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

You are doing wonders for my stress level reduction - cheers!

The second company was indeed Momentum.

Momentum was the name of company run by the Rankines: http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updat...0#.UpiFpo3sNgc

43/10 26 April 2010

The OFT has welcomed an interim Enforcement Order obtained by Birmingham Trading Standards against 'debt sale' company Momentum Network Ltd.

The Order, granted in Birmingham County Court, prevents Momentum Network Ltd, trading as Credit Card Killer, and its owners, Mr and Mrs Basil Rankine, from:

• engaging in the unfair commercial practice of 'debt sale' whereby consumers are offered the opportunity to 'sell' their consumer credit debts without the consent of the original creditor
• making misleading claims that they can, for example, make consumers 'debt free in 2 weeks by buying their debt for £1'
• carrying on ancillary credit business as defined in the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I requested a CCA regarding Northern Rock and it came through valid. This was via McKenzie Hall on behalf of RBS. Once validated RBS sold all responsibility for collecting the debt to Marlin. This is a loan. I have NOT requested a CCA for any of the other outstanding debts.

WHO said it was valid?

I have never taken out PPI to my knowledge. However, I have also been told that were I to double check by engaging a company to do it, then any PPI would go to creditors in full and I would have to pay the company that checked myself rather than from the PPI.

That sounds like one of them claims management companies, who are after only one thing: Your money!

You don't need to engage any company to check if you had PPI, all you'd have to do is send a SAR to each lender (not for each account, i.e. if you had both a loan and a credit card, you could send one SAR to that bank). A SAR should yield statements and other documents for the last 6 years at the very least. If there was any PPI, it would show up on your statements. It is true that any PPI redress on a defaulted account would normally go towards reducing the balance, however, in some cases where debts have been sold, the debtor has received a cheque. :bounce:

One thing you don't need to do is pay anyone to do it for you. A SAR costs £10 + postage, once you receive the documents, you can do the reclaim yourself, there are some good PPI specialists on here. :yo:

[SteveEX9]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

Thanks once again.

One (more) question - what makes a CCA valid? I received paperwork from McKenzie Hall via NR which appeared to be all in order sadly so I believed I had no reason to contest it.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

Thanks once again.

One (more) question - what makes a CCA valid? I received paperwork from McKenzie Hall via NR which appeared to be all in order sadly so I believed I had no reason to contest it.

According to section 61(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974:

61.(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless;

• a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and
• the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and
• the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

Section 60(1) says that the Secretary of State shall make regulations as to the form and content of documents embodying regulated agreements and these regulations are mainly laid down in the various schedules to the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983.

The agreement must have the following:

• A heading in the prescribed form stating the kind of agreement (such as Loan Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974)
• Name and address of debtor and creditor
• Your right to cancel
• Signature box with your signature and date
• Financial Information for fixed-sum loans:

• the amount of credit
• the duration of the agreement
• total charge for credit
• rate of interest/APR
• how interest is applied
• total amount payable
• number of repayments
• timing/frequency of repayments
• repayment dates

If you had PPI on the loan, separate PPI terms should be supplied, otherwise the agreement may be unenforceable under Section 18 of the CCA.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Collective or solo responsibility?

I received paperwork from McKenzie Hall via NR which appeared to be all in order sadly so I believed I had no reason to contest it.

Really - despite it having come from MacKenzie Hall (where bad debts go to die) you supposed it was valid?