CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

[Helios]

Hi,

About 3 years ago I defaulted on 2 Barclaycard credit cards, totalling about £22k of debt. Since then I've received various letter demands, phone calls and visits from debt collectors. The debt now seems to have been bought by Lowell, and I've had letters off them, Fredrickson and now Bryan Carter (who I realise are the same bunch under slightly different guises). Anyway, until just recently, these letters had the word "may" in whatever they were threatening to do. Now I've had this letter (and an identically worded one for the other CC debt):

--see attachment--

I could be wrong, but I get the impression they're now serious about taking court action. Quite why, I'm not sure, as I don't own a house or car, but they SEEM keen. There's no "may" anymore. It's perhaps out of desperation that they think I can magic the money out of thin air .

I've searched around this site and various others, and get the impression my best course of action to stop/delay legal proceedings is to make CCA requests for both debts (something I haven't done up to now), as there's the possibility that both debts might be legally unenforceable? (they did offer me a 50% discount a while back on both, which might be another hint of this?) So I'm preparing to make two CCA requests, £1 postal order and recorded/registered delivery, to Bryan Carter. I'm going to use this template:

Dear Sirs,

Account or Reference No.:

I hereby formally request a copy of my Consumer Credit Agreement, pursuant to s.77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974).I require you to provide me with a true copy, or reconstituted copy of the credit agreement relating to any account you deem to be mine, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide. I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit (12 + 2 days).

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties. Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b), 6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

In line with recent OFT Guidance (issued Oct 2010) surrounding Unenforceability, I presume you're aware that the OFT has stipulated that 'sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 outline the information creditors must provide to debtors under fixed-term, running account & Hire Agreements'. This simply means that under these sections a debtor can pay £1 to get:

a copy of their agreement
copies of some of the other documents mentioned in their agreement
a statement of account


If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable. This means a creditor cannot:

make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to
get a court judgment against the debtor


So, in line with the OFT Guidance, and the Consumer Credit Act, please find attached my £1 payment, which is the statutory fee - note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose. If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee and then remove the incorrect entry from your systems.

I do, expect the main actions to be dealt with, as matter of course, and look forward to hearing from you within the prescribed time-scales quoted however, in the meantime, I require that you clarify your position on this point as failure to do so, even by omission or lack of a response, will be regarded as an attempt to deliberately misrepresent or conceal the legal position regarding this matter to which an appropriate complaint will be made to the OFT.

Yours faithfully,

Taken from the final post of this thread:

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ter-Solicitors


So basically just a quick question or two before I proceed. Are there any downsides making these requests (my usual stance in dealing with them up to now has been ignoring their attempts at communication)? Is this my best course of action in this specific instance, or should I be doing something else? And has anyone else received identcally worded letters to these, and if so, what happened next, court action, or another threat letter?

Thanks in advance for any replies. Unfortunately I've just found this site and I think I'm short on time and so will be posting the letters today, I think, so any double-quick advice would be very appreciated :tinysmile_grin_t:. Thanks.

[Angry Cat]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

You have ever right to request information under sections 77, 78 and 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
The statutory fee payable for same is £1.00.
Please ensure that you mark your postal order: CCA Statutury Fee Only; keep copies!

[PlanB]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

these letters had the word "may" in whatever they were threatening to do. Now I've had this letter (and an identically worded one for the other CC debt): --see attachment--

I could be wrong, but I get the impression they're now serious about taking court action. Quite why, I'm not sure, as I don't own a house or car, but they SEEM keen. There's no "may" anymore. . . .

. . . . . . . Is this my best course of action in this specific instance, or should I be doing something else? And has anyone else received identcally worded letters to these, and if so, what happened next, court action, or another threat letter?.

I've read that letter from Bryan Carter at it appears to be a Letter Before Action. It tells you what you owe and to whom, it tells you what you must do to remedy the situation (pay them by a specific date), and it tells you what will happen if you don't (they will issue court proceedings).

What is the exact October date you've blanked out because they don't have to give you another warning before issuing a court summons. Get that section 78 request off to them so that it arrives before that date whatever happens. Send a separate request with a separate £1 postal order for each debt (did you say there were two?). Send it Royal Mail Recorded Delivery.

[MIKE770]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

send 1st class Recorded Delivery

[Helios]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

You have ever right to request information under sections 77, 78 and 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
The statutory fee payable for same is £1.00.
Please ensure that you mark your postal order: CCA Statutury Fee Only; keep copies!

Thanks for the reply .

It's my right, but I'm just wondering if it's the most effective thing I can do.

RE: Marking. How do I do that exactly? I can't remember what a postal order even looks like, to be honest . Just write at the top "CCA Statutury Fee Only" or write it on the back, or...?


Oh, the other thing I meant to ask was, should I make it out and send it to Lowells or Bryan Carter Solicitors? Or (the option I was favouring), make it out to Lowells, but send it to Brian Carter Solicitors with a covering letter?

Thanks for any replies.

[MIKE770]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

write on the Back or the post office counters will no doubt for you. Brian Carter who is threatening you, letter is CCA1974 request, quote their reference number and your acount number, make sure it goes off to-night 1st Class Recorded delivery.

[Helios]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

Ok, thanks.

I'll make the letters out and send them to Bryan Carter Solicitors LLP and make the postal orders out to "Bryan Carter Solicitors LLP" Not sure what the LLP bit is, but it seems to appear on all their literature, so I'll assume it's officially part of their name.

[Helios]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

P.S. PlanB, sent you a message about the date, cheers .

[PlanB]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

P.S. PlanB, sent you a message about the date, cheers .

PM received :thumb:

Due to the closeness of that *date* you need to leg it to the post office before 5 pm today. Keep a photocopy of your letters so you can also fax them to Bryan Carter tonight/tomorrow to cover yourself in case Royal Mail don't deliver in time.

Don't put any name on the Postal Orders. Leave them blank (that's what I always do). Send your s.78 requests to Bryan Carter because that's who's writing to you. Also fax a copy of each one to Lowells to be extra safe.

You'll see in the penultimate paragraph of that s.78 letter it says "these funds are not to be used for any other purpose". This is to prevent them crediting the £1 to your debt which would re-start the statute barred clock.

Chop Chop

[PlanB]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

I'll make the letters out and send them to Bryan Carter Solicitors LLP and make the postal orders out to "Bryan Carter Solicitors LLP" Not sure what the LLP bit is, but it seems to appear on all their literature, so I'll assume it's officially part of their name.

LLP = Limited Liability Partnership. It's not relevant to this scenario but since you're curious it means that one partner is not responsible for any of the other partners' misconduct or negligence.

[Helios]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

Chop Chop

I chopped .

Thanks guys, I don't know how you do that thanks points thing, but thanks anyway. Virtual thanks points all round :tinysmile_grin_t:. We'll see how it goes...

Found a fax number for Bryan Carter (0845 223 5656), but couldn't find one for Lowell's. Googled around, nothing. Perhaps it's staring me in the face somewhere, or maybe they just don't have one. Perhaps they got sick of people faxing pictures of their genitals to them or something.

So if anyone's got a Lowells fax number handy, that would be great.

Regards

[PlanB]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

So if anyone's got a Lowells fax number handy, that would be great.

Here you go 0845 300 9411

The reason to fax copies to Lowells is that creditors instruct solicitors and not the other way round. If Lowells want to call off the dogs then they can contact Bryan Carter and put things on hold. Bryan Carter have a reputation for issuing summons online regardless of what they hear from the debtor (sorry to use that dreadful word).

[Helios]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

Just to revive an old post .

Well, what you guys told me to do was successful, for a while at least. And a big thanks to you guys for that, as it stopped them in their tracks on their then course of action. After sending the CCA requests, they eventually sent me letters back saying that Barclaycard couldn't find proof of a credit agreement between me and Barclaycard, they were stopping legal action, and they weren't going to pursue the debts any further. Which of course, was a pleasant surprise... Then about three months later they seemed to change their minds . A big, heavy envelope popped through the door. Seems Barclaycard had rustled up what they could, with some statements for the months up to and after I stopped paying and a 'reconstructed' (think that was the word they used) credit agreement, what I 'MUST have signed' they claim (with still no signature or real evidence that I had), but with some various ramblings about 'considering my position'. Looked like someone had actually bothered to type up a letter this time, instead of some standard output.

Anyway, I'm now stuck in the same loop I was before. Phone calls and voicemail messages I ignore and the usual letters. The latest from Hamptons. It's of course, hard to say if they're going to eventually attempt to take the court route again, or they're just blowing smoke, and will just continue with the same tactics that wasted their time last time round.

The one thing I'm very curious about, though, was this current change of tack by them, about 3 months after saying they were giving it up. Was there a new court ruling or something? Has a judge ruled a reconstructed/recreated credit agreement, without a signature, could be regarded as proof of a credit agreement between us? Or could it just be the case that someone else in Lowell or Barclaycard was given my account and decided to try on this new tactic? Also curious the amount of effort Barclaycard went to, considering they've sold the debt on.

I was also wondering about this 7 years debt issue (EDIT: actually on reading posts on here, it might be 6 years). I believe, if the debt goes unpaid 7 years, it becomes legally unenforceable? What I'm curious about is what happens after this 7 years. Will they still keep sending me letters and making phone calls? Just wondering what people's experience is of this, and wondering if even after the 7 years are up, I'll never truly get shot of them. I'm just pondering if bankruptcy might be a good option, as I don't own any assets, and if helps me shake finally them off my back... I don't fancy still being sent letters and hassled over this in ANOTHER 10 year's time. I realise on such as significant step it's not an easy question give instant advice on, but I'm just wondering if it's the better option from a 'less hassle in the future' perspective, based on people's experiences.

One other interesting thing, is that although the debts have gone unpaid over 4 years now, Barclaycard only sent me letters saying that I'd defaulted on the debts and they'd put it on my credit record about 12 months ago. I was more than a touch bemused at how long they'd taken to get round to it. I was thinking 'has my credit record gone undamaged all this time!?' I'd never actually checked and just assumed they'd put a default on my credit record in the first few months. Could this have been a deliberate tactic to extend this 7 year period?

So in summary, my questions are. Any idea why the sudden reversion to pursuing me over the debt? Bankruptcy a good option if I finally want rid of them? Could I have to maybe wait longer than 7 years because of Barclaycard delaying the default? Oh, and what move do you think I should make now, ignore the letters unless they get more serious, or should I send some sort of standard reply?

Thanks for any replies to any questions in advance.

[Helios]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

Hmmm, too many questions? Bit muddled? Put the post together in a slight hurry, so perhaps. The 7 years I was talking about is the 6 years 'statute barred' law. Not sure why I thought it was 7 years.

I can hunt down and scan the letters that weren't the 'standard fair' if that helps, but I got those ones a few months ago and being slightly chaotic and disorganised, I've managed to mislay them at present.

Anyway, any answers to a question would be great., thanks.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCA requests the best course of action? (urgent)

. A big, heavy envelope popped through the door. Seems Barclaycard had rustled up what they could, with some statements for the months up to and after I stopped paying and a 'reconstructed' (think that was the word they used) credit agreement, what I 'MUST have signed' they claim (with still no signature or real evidence that I had), but with some various ramblings about 'considering my position'. Looked like someone had actually bothered to type up a letter this time, instead of some standard output.

Any chance you could post up what they've sent you? :typing:

Barclays are notoriously bad at keeping (and retrieving) documents, so they may just be trying to fob you off. :noidea:

Anyway, I'm now stuck in the same loop I was before. Phone calls and voicemail messages I ignore and the usual letters. The latest from Hamptons. It's of course, hard to say if they're going to eventually attempt to take the court route again, or they're just blowing smoke, and will just continue with the same tactics that wasted their time last time round.

Do keep a log of all calls you receive, even if you don't answer them.

The one thing I'm very curious about, though, was this current change of tack by them, about 3 months after saying they were giving it up. Was there a new court ruling or something? Has a judge ruled a reconstructed/recreated credit agreement, without a signature, could be regarded as proof of a credit agreement between us? Or could it just be the case that someone else in Lowell or Barclaycard was given my account and decided to try on this new tactic? Also curious the amount of effort Barclaycard went to, considering they've sold the debt on.

Yes, there was such a judgment with regards to reconstructed agreements, but it wasn't recent, it dates back to 2009. The case in question is Carey v HSBC

The recent test case heard at the Manchester Mercantile Court, Carey v HSBC and others related to the application of section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act (the Act) and whether the failure of a creditor to produce an actual copy of the credit agreement would make the agreement irredeemably unenforceable or at the very least create an unfair relationship.

Section 78 of the Act is the provision under which a debtor can make a request for a true copy of their credit agreement.

The test case appears to have made it clear that creditors are entitled to produce a reconstituted version of the credit agreement from the information they hold on the debtor. The reconstituted version does not need to include a signature box or indeed the actual signature but must contain the debtor’s name and address at the time it was executed.

It should be note that Carey was the CLAIMANT, not the defendant.