Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

[Liv'n'Dai]

Hi all

This is my first post as I've just joined the site because of this problem I have encountered.

I'm writing with regards to a problem that me and my partner have tangled ourselves up in and really need some help if possible.

It's a very, very long and messy story but I'll try to start with the most salient points and the current problem we are facing...

A week ago, completely out of the blue we received a letter from a DCA asking us for around £2800 for an unpaid vet’s bill for an operation on a dog in December 2011. It was a standard letter threatening us with court action if not paid within 14 days and suggesting that they would kindly drop the amount by 25% if paid immediately.

We have never received a bill from the vet as the dog in question did not belong to us. There is a possibility that bills have been sent to us since mid-July 2012 as we have moved address – but this is 6 months after the dog’s treatment.

That is all very simple. The rest is quite complicated.

The dog belonged to the Vet's full time, long-term employee (as a receptionist). We first met the employee and her partner in October 2011 when we rented a room in a house they were subletting rooms in. The couple were planning to leave the country for a long term trip at the beginning of 2012 and were desperately looking for someone to take care of their dog whilst they were away. Possibly permanently.

We fell in love with the dog and decided we could help out. We had an agreement that we would not be financially liable for any part of the dog’s care. They would provide money for all food, accessories and any cost incurred. The vet was well aware of this arrangement.
The owners decided that it would be wise to take out insurance and of course, paid for it themselves.
BUT, here is the most crucial point…
…My partners name is on the policy. As in the New Year we would be caring for the dog and it seemed to make sense that my partner could deal with any claims herself as the owners might be out of contact in the wilds of Sri-Lanka.

In December 2011, immediately after the policy was taken out, the dog developed cruciate ligament problems and needed surgery. The owners were still in the country at this point and were still the sole carers for the animal.
They were desperate to rush through the operation so that it could be completed whilst they were still in the country and could look after the animal post-op.
The owner in discussion with her boss, the vet, found a skilled surgeon who the owner thought was the most qualified to carry out the operation.
At no point were we involved in these discussions. The deal was between always between the owners and the vet.
The owner wanted us to put in a claim for the treatment even though, the policy had only just come into effect (14 days after the policy was taken out). It seemed risky to us, as it was so soon and might seem suspicious to the insurers. The owner assured us that she had dealt with similar claims before and there would be no problem. The vet seemed similarly content that there would be no problem. We were also put at ease by the owner’s constant assurance that we would never be financially liable for anything to do with the dog. (the couple had saved many thousands of pounds for their trip and were prepared to give up some of that if needs be).
And guess what…?
The owners left on Dec 31^st. The insurance refused to pay. The owners then stopped answering the vet’s and our messages.
The dog’s recovery went badly and she developed serious aggressive behavioural problems. The owners, who had previously promised to come home if there were any problems, decided that they were having too much of a good time in the sun. The relationship nose-dived horribly and they treated us despicably.
The horrific outcome is that we had to have the dog put to sleep as she was so dangerous. We had to have the consent of 2 vets to do this as the animal did not belong to us, one of which was the original vet. This was in June 2012.
We spoke to the vet several times during this period. He was furious that his ex-employee was refusing contact and to pay their bills. He also seemed to be very sympathetic to our problems with the dog.
At no point was there any suggestion that we were considered financially liable for the outstanding bill. We had managed to find out where the owners parents lived as we were considering taking the dog to them to look after as it was proving too difficult for us to keep her. We were happy to pass on these details to the vet so that he could chase them up for the whereabouts of the owners.
In one of our last communications with the vet he told us that he had been around to the parents’ house but nobody was in. We assumed that he would continue to chase the owners for the debt.
This is only part of the story, but it was incredibly traumatic for us and we thought that finally we had been able to put it all behind us.
Then the DCA letter arrived.
We have sent the ‘prove it’ letter back which they received on October 2^nd. Since then my partner has received 2 phone calls (one to her work number), an answer phone message and a text message. The next day, whilst at work I received a call from them. My partner told them to abide by the ‘prove it’ letter and hung up. I ranted for 20 minutes explaining who the debt belonged to and giving them as many details as possible about the owners.
We have written to the vet, suggesting that some mistake has been made, but he hasn’t replied (prior to the DCAs letter we had heard nothing from him at all since March).
We have had a letter from the DCA saying that they don’t appreciate being threatened (ha!), that as the debt is not under a CCA the OFT have no power over them and that the vet states that as ownership of the dog was transferred to us we are liable.
So after this entire ramble (and believe me, I have left many elements out for brevity’s sake) here is my first question.
Does the fact that my partner’s name appears on the insurance make her financially liable for the debt?
What can we do next?
What can we say to the DCA?
I’m contemplating making a formal complaint to the Royal Society For Veterinary Surgeons, in principle they do not deal with contested debts but we consider his behaviour to be unethical and therefore possibly interpretable as professional misconduct.
We are going to write to the vet again asking why, if he thinks we are liable, he has never sent us a bill.
The whole thing is so horribly screwed up and both the owners and the vet have proved themselves to be devious unprincipled people.
We are totally distraught and urgently need some advice.

[labman]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

I don't think it is as simple as your question asks. Can I ask which company the pet insurance was with, and what type of policy was held with the company (so I can look up the T&C's).

My concern here is that there can be no doubt that your wife put in the claim to the insurance company for the dog's treatment. Playing devil's advocate, one might ask if the dog did not belong to her, yet she was claiming as though it were her pet, is that not a fraudulent claim?

Did the pet have any other proof of ownership - for example had it been microchipped which would prove ownership by the genuine owners? They would have had a responsibility to transfer details of ownership registered against the chip.

As for the DCA, I think your wife did exactly the right thing telling them to reply to the letter. Until such time as they can prove you owe the money, you really have nothing more to say to them. Don't get caught up in lengthy conversations with them on the phone, in fact I would refuse to talk to them on the phone at all. Everything should be in writing for the avoidance of doubt.

[Liv'n'Dai]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

Hi Labman, thanks for the reply,

That's what we are afraid of really. It was a John Lewis policy, can't remember the name of it but the limit was about £2-3k. The owner transferred the cash for the policy via BACS, so we can prove that she paid for the policy if needs be but it is my partners name on the policy.

The dog was however microchipped and stayed registered to the owner until she was put to sleep. In addition, when we informed the owner that we were afraid the dog was going to hurt someone and could no longer cope with or accept liability for her behaviour and were going to try and rehome her (as they had refused to return home or make other arrangements), the owner phoned petlog to say that he dog belonged to her and that she didn't want her rehomed to stop us doing it. I think that was in March. Later on when we had run out of options and were discussing euthanising the animal with the vet, the owners got in contact with that vet to say the animal was theirs and they didn't want her put to sleep.

So we really don't know what to do here, she really wasn't our animal and the vet knows it. He was previously pursuing the owner for the debt and we have not received a single bill or piece of correspondence from him... The DCA reply to our prove it letter says that we took over ownership and financial responsibility for the dog and therefore my partner is liable for the debt, and if we disagree the court will decide. is this right? Surely they must have to produce a bill before they can take my partner to court? Otherwise it's just his word against ours...? The DCA letter was the first we knew that the vet considered us liable. Sorry, that's another ramble but it's such a mess

[labman]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

DCA's rarely take court action. The debt is to the vet, so the vet has instructed the DCA. It is highly unlikely the vet has sold the debt to the DCA as only bigger organisations tend to do that in my experience. Thus it is likely to be what is called an Equitable Assignment -ie- the DCA has been instructed to collect the debt, but couldn't take court action by itself without going back to the vet to ensure it's OK to do so. The vet would then hopefully realise he was on dodgy ground, as you could force disclosure of him pursuing the original owners for the debt (hard for him to explain to a court), you could also bring in the people to whom the phone calls were made as witnesses to the veracity of what you are saying.

Personally, I would suggest you continue the prove it route. The DCA will say you were the owners as they want you to pay the money. The thing is, can they prove it? They need to prove it is your debt, and until they do, you really have nothing further to say to them.

I will ponder this one as regards possibly writiing something to the vet in question, as for any claim he might make, you could put in a counterclaim.

[ploddertom]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

For the sum of money involved I would be asking why the vet hasn't gone straight for Court action as if he is so certain as to ownership then proceedings would have been a formality. I agree with Labman that the vet knows he is on dodgy ground and is hoping the involvment of DCA's would frighten you into payment.

[Liv'n'Dai]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

Thanks that would be great.

What would we need to prove he was pursuing the original owners? We know he tried to call and email them as well as calling around to the parents' house, but as we weren't involved we have no evidence of this. We do have one email from him saying thanks for giving him their address but is that enough?

Also, should I reply to the DCA again or just ignore them?

[pepsie]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

Simple questions here.....who signed and in what capacity, for the dog to undergo surgery?

Did the pet insurance pay out to your claim, if so to what amount?

This vet knows he is on very dodgy ground and should not be chasing you for this. Send a letter by recorded delivery to him, asking for full disclosure to his reasons for pursuing you for this debt and give him a deadline of 14 days to reply, failing which you will instruct a solicitor to bring your complaint before the RCVS and give consideration to bringing private action for what appears to a fraudulent claim.

Pepsie

[astraldream]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

You would have been asked to sign authorisation for the op to go ahead, when you dropped the dog off. this will be the contract between yourselves and the vet. this is standard practice for a vet to do as they need to do this to adhere to RCVS guidelenes, therefore YOU are liable for costs. It makes no differnece who the dogs microchip is registered to, this is merely a form of identification for lost/stolen dogs. Most id not all insurance companies will only pay out for accident during the first 14 days not illness. And although a cruciate can snap or partially snap and it can be considered an accident actually this is due to degenerative cruciate DISEASE so in fact it is an illness so therefore uninsurable. I recently went to a dog law seminar which the leading dog law solicitor Trevor Cooper held, all things like this was covered. If you are in any doubt if you google Trevor Cooper dog law he does a premium line advice sessions at certain times but i'm afraid he will just tell you what i have told you.

[labman]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

@ Astral
If it were proven the vet had chased the original owners for this debt before chasing the poster, how would either you or Trevor Cooper respond? If the contract was with the OP, why would the vet ask someone else to pay the debt?

The OP was not the owner of the dog. If it were a child they would have been acting 'in loco parentis.' They had authority to sign on behalf of the owner. Sorry, but I believe the owner is liable and it could reasonably easy be proven so. I would follow either my previous advice and let them prove the debt, or Pepsie's advice.

There are more legal routes that could be taken, but no point mentioning those until or if they become necessary.

[Liv'n'Dai]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

Pepsie/Astraldream, thanks both for your replies. To answer your questions, we did not sign an authorisation for the op to go ahead, as at this time the owner was still in the country (and employed by the vet). She sourced and arranged for the surgeon to carry out the surgery, dropped the animal off and picked her up, discussed the aftercare with the surgeon and carried it out. We weren't involved with the op at all other than to sign the claim form and to take the dog for several post-op check ups once the owner had left the country. The insurance did not pay out at all, but we did not receive any bill or correspondence from the vet until the first DCA letter arrived last week.

[labman]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

They really do have to prove the debt is yours then don't they. The vet sounds a nasty piece of work. Given this, I think Pepsie's suggestion is an excellent one.

[Liv'n'Dai]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

Thank you everyone for your help, we both really appreciate it. I know it's quite a particular case but is there a template letter available for something like this?

[astraldream]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

To answer Labman, If the OP had changed address are we sure he did chase the original owners beforehand? we dont know. Ans secondly with regards to the "in loco parentis" i can understand where you are coming from but dogs are not seen in law the same way as a child. A dog is an object, a chattel. So if my TV went on the blink and you take it to be repaired for me and you ask for it to be fixed it is your responsibility to pay. However the OP has just come back to say that they never signed the authorisation form for them to go ahead with work in fact the owners did so, when they dropped off and picked up the dog in which case i will change and say it is the owners who are liable.

[labman]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

I know this will need adapting to incorporate Pepsie's suggestions, but you can send this as it stands to the DCA, and an amended version of it to the vet.

Dear Sir/Madam

You have contacted me/us regarding the account with the above reference number, which you claim is owed by myself/ourselves.

I/we would point out that I/we have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to (insert company name).

I am/we are familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

I/we would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

I/we would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my/our liability for the debt in question.

I/we await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise I will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

I/we look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully

[Liv'n'Dai]

Re: Owing money for someone else's pet - can we be forced to pay?

Hi Labman,

Can we send the prove it letter twice? The DCA aready responded to our intial letter to say that as we are not under a CCA the OFT can't do anything. They passed on what the vet had told them (i.e. we took over financial responsibility from the original owner) and said that this means we did know about the debt and we are liable for it. Will they not just respond in a similar fashion unless we include more information about the dispute? Also, where do we stand in terms of the OFT if we are not under a CCA (or any agreement at all for that matter if astral and pepsie are correct and the owner having signed for the op makes her liable)?

So sorry for all the questions, we really appreciate your help and advice.