Debt Collection - Credit card

[Jester37]

In February of this year (2011) my wife received a demand for a credit card bill (HSBC) from DG Solicitors.

During the time since then, we have sent repeated letters (most of which seem to be ignored) requesting that they send us proof of the debt i.e. A Credit Card Agreement and Copies of the Credit Card Statements leading to the debt.

We actually received no direct response from the Solicitors, the only thing we received were further Demand Letters and it actually took my contacting the Financial Ombudsman and HSBC Complaints department to get an actual acknowledgement of my requests. I am advised that they do not have a copy of the Credit Card Agreement and all they have sent us are credit card statements dating back to October 2010 showing a brought forward balance + interest.

The debt itself must only refer to 2003 and prior as we moved at the end of 2003 and we're certain it hadn't arisen since then as we had changed banks at the same time. It would also explain the reason they took so long to write to us. Note that we have been provided with no information as to when the debt arose.

My wife did have a credit card back in 2003 but we're almost certain that we had paid it off using the proceeds from our house.

We can't use the Limitations Act as my wife paid off £60 after receiving a phone call from the solictors prior to February 2011 along with a demand which she kept from me - long story.

Anyway, recently we received a letter from the Solicitors enclosing the Oct 10 to Nov 11 Credit Card Statements informing us they were passing it on to a collection agency (Metropolitan Collection Services) who then wrote to us informing us that they were passing it on to a Collection Unit (Which is actually just a division of the same company). The letter from the Solicitors was received 17 days after the date on the letter and so by the time we received it the next 2 letters weren't far behind and we've managed to put it on hold for a short period as i have informed them it is in dispute.

On the basis that they have no Credit Card Agreement and no Credit Card Statements relating to the actual debt itself (other than a brought forward figure on the last 12 months statements) where do we stand? Is it possible they have already obtained a CCJ for which we weren't aware? Does this make a difference.

We're not the kind of people to avoid paying our debts, but feel that we are being bullied into paying something for which we have no knowledge or evidence of it actually existing.

Thanks

[labman]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

When was the payment made. If 6 clear years had passed without the debt being acknowledged, your wife may have made a payment, but a debt which is Statute Barred cannot be un-Statute Barred. So - if the payment was made AFTER the 6 year period, and you're sure the debt is SB, then nothing can be done about it.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

When was the payment made. If 6 clear years had passed without the debt being acknowledged, your wife may have made a payment, but a debt which is Statute Barred cannot be un-Statute Barred. So - if the payment was made AFTER the 6 year period, and you're sure the debt is SB, then nothing can be done about it.

Indeed.

The law on this is perfectly simple and should be understood even by DG Solicitors.

Section 5 of the Limitation Act 1980 (link) states that debts that have remained wholly unpaid and unacknowledged for six years are 'statute barred' - that no action for such an alleged debt shall be brought - whilst section 29(7) (link) precludes any statute barred debt from becoming revived by subsequent payment or acknowledgement.

If DG Solicitors have suggested otherwise, they should:

1. be reminded of the law, and
2. referred to the Solicitors' Regulatory Authority who may wish them to undergo retraining

[CleverClogs]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

In February of this year (2011) my wife received a demand for a credit card bill (HSBC) from DG Solicitors.

The debt itself must only refer to 2003 and prior as we moved at the end of 2003 and we're certain it hadn't arisen since then as we had changed banks at the same time. It would also explain the reason they took so long to write to us. Note that we have been provided with no information as to when the debt arose.

My wife did have a credit card back in 2003 but we're almost certain that we had paid it off using the proceeds from our house.

One would expect that alleged debt became statute barred by the end of 2009 or the end of 2010 at the very latest.

We can't use the Limitations Act as my wife paid off £60 after receiving a phone call from the solictors prior to February 2011 along with a demand which she kept from me - long story.

That is almost certainly nonsense.

Anyway, recently we received a letter from the Solicitors enclosing the Oct 10 to Nov 11 Credit Card Statements informing us they were passing it on to a collection agency (Metropolitan Collection Services) who then wrote to us informing us that they were passing it on to a Collection Unit (Which is actually just a division of the same company). The letter from the Solicitors was received 17 days after the date on the letter and so by the time we received it the next 2 letters weren't far behind and we've managed to put it on hold for a short period as i have informed them it is in dispute.

If those shysters have passed or assigned the alleged debt to a collection agency rather than attempting to sue, that does rather suggest that they already knew the debt is unenforceable and/or statute barred.

On the basis that they have no Credit Card Agreement and no Credit Card Statements relating to the actual debt itself (other than a brought forward figure on the last 12 months statements) where do we stand? Is it possible they have already obtained a CCJ for which we weren't aware?

It may be possible, but it seems unlikely; if there had been a CCJ obtained more than six years ago, section 24 of the Limitation Act 1980 (link) means that could not be enforced.

Does this make a difference.

It may make a difference to the lies the debt collecting parasites might tell you.

We're not the kind of people to avoid paying our debts, but feel that we are being bullied into paying something for which we have no knowledge or evidence of it actually existing.

Congratulations - you already have been.

You should stop that £60 from your wife's new hat allowance. :tinysmile_grin_t:

[Angry Cat]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

Jester37,
If you are in any doubt about a default CCJ?
Please check here by entering the correct name and address at the time you may think that the CCJ could have been obtained:
CCJs, court orders & fines - Search yourself and others - Trust Online

There is a small fee payable but worth it just to know just exactly where you stand.

[Jester37]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

Huge thanks for the comments.

The payments were made in Oct 10 to Jan 11 and we moved in Dec 2003 meaning the 6 years are up at the end of 2009 (this is assuming my wife didn't use her card in 2010 - which i don't believe she did - given that HSBC haven't supplied any credit cards back to then it is difficult to know 100%)

In my letters to DG Solicitors I had asked the direct question of why the debt wasn't statute barred in addition to my request for the Credit Card Agreement and statements - they never gave a response to my question despite asking 6 or 7 times (now i see why); the only response came from HSBC complaints who suggested that the payments my wife had made meant the debt wasn't statute barred.

Seriously big thank you for this advice; it certainly puts my mind at ease before Xmas (not that my wife's getting any Xmas presents this year )

[Guest]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

Is it possible they have already obtained a CCJ for which we weren't aware? Does this make a difference.


Thanks

Hi
Yes it does, as AC says it would be a good idea too check, judgements are not statute barred, although the creditor generally requires peermission fron the court in order to enforce if over 6 years.

Peter

[Angry Cat]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

Hi
Yes it does, as AC says it would be a good idea too check, judgements are not statute barred, although the creditor generally requires peermission fron the court in order to enforce if over 6 years.

Peter

Quite so!

Limitation

An action cannot be brought on any judgment after the expiry of 6 years from the date it became enforceable. The term "action" only applies to the commencement of fresh proceedings on a judgment, it does not include enforcement proceedings so, strictly speaking, for enforcement purposes and enforcement proceedings, no limitation period applies. However, any delay in enforcement on the part of the judgment creditor will affect any award of interest as recoverable interest is limited to 6 years on a judgment that is executed after the expiry of the 6 year period.

Court permission is required to enforce a judgment debt that is more than 6 years old. In a particular case of Warrants of Execution, these must be renewed after 12 months if they have not been enforced. Further, the court is entitled to take account of delay and enforcement when exercising its discretion to grant any Order sought.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

I dispute that, as Section 24 of the Limitation Act 1980 (link) is quite clear:

24 Time limit for actions to enforce judgments.

(1) An action shall not be brought upon any judgment after the expiration of six years from the date on which the judgment became enforceable.

(2) No arrears of interest in respect of any judgment debt shall be recovered after the expiration of six years from the date on which the interest became due.

As for some twerp at the Hong-Kong and Shanghai Bank of Con-men suggesting that the payment(s) would have revived the alleged debt, that is simply foolish nonsense babbled by someone who either does not know the law or who just doesn't care.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

If you are in any doubt about a default CCJ?
Please check here by entering the correct name and address at the time you may think that the CCJ could have been obtained:
CCJs, court orders & fines - Search yourself and others - Trust Online

There is a small fee payable but worth it just to know just exactly where you stand.

If any CCJ had been given in favour of any claimant more than six years ago, it will not appear on any registry search.

It is much more likely that the alleged debt was created by HSBC not having properly recorded that the account had been paid in full and closed.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

CC, a CCJ doesn't become statute barred regards enforcement due to the Limitation Act!

However, if enforcement has not taken place during six years the claimant would have to seek the courts permission to enforce.

[Guest]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

Hi
Yes i have seen section 24 before and wondered why all the debt agencies advise that a judgment can be enforced with the permission of the court after six years. I hadnt looked into it, i just presumed that their had been an SI issued or some subsequnt legislation that i was not aware of. On looking around now i found this which may go some way to explain.

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A7...com/5-505-6193

Peter

[Guest]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

Hi
In particular this bit

In their Lordships' opinion, "action" meant a fresh action and did not include proceedings by way of execution. Execution has been held to mean the process for enforcing or giving effect to a judgment of the court. The process is “completed”" when the judgment creditor gets the money or other thing awarded to him by the judgment (Re Overseas Aviation Engineering GB Ltd [1963] Ch 24).
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Hi

Sorry AC i see you have already raised this.

Peter

[Angry Cat]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

Apologies to the OP: Jester37 for going off topic.

IMO, he/she would benefit from making request(s)
for information, as an individual, under the data protection act 1998 to the parties concerned in order to gain information about his/her position:
Find out how to access your personal information - ICO

[Guest]

Re: Debt Collection - Credit card

HI

Dont think this discusson is off topic

Hopefuly the OP will have a better understanding of what Statute Barr means.

Which i think was the point.

Peter