Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE :(

[joekillen92]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

Cheers [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION], Ill have a go writing to the Ombudsman relating only to the Termination clause - Please find a copy of my contract in your inbox (not the best quality sorry)

Kind regards,

J.

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

Thanks for the agreement. If you need any help with it let me know but is fairly straight forward, you need to try be concise and to the point.

I can see from the agreement that the first page mentions the Termination: Your Rights section and underneath it there is the excess mileage clause. There's a clear conflict here because on the one hand the termination clause says you don't pay anymore, but on the other hand it says you do have to pay more.

Because Ford have created the terms and conditions which are clearly ambiguous, the benefit of the doubt should be given to the consumer.

You can support your claim by referring to the Consumer Credit (Agreement) Regulations 2010, Schedule 2 which contains a mandatory statement exactly the same as the one on the first page. Clearly the the clause protects a consumer and so the liability is limited to 50% of the total amount payable and any overdue instalments but does not include the excess milage.




http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...chedule/2/made

[joekillen92]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

Hi @R0b

I followed your advice and complained to the Ombudsman - not directly in relation to VT clause under CCA but under the specific wording on the contract about "Your right to terminate", just got off the phone to the Ombudsman's adjudicator who is yet to look properly at my info (& yet to receive anything from ford even though the deadline for info was 24th DEC), the guy I spoke to seems to already be siding with Ford despite not receiving all the facts and looking at the case fully.

He warned me that he's seen a lot of this stuff regarding excess mileage and then starts talking about how it is a clause in the contract I signed etc.

I started to argue about the wording of the CCA s.100 but he kept referring back to the fact that I had exceeded mileage etc and basically said don't get your hopes up...

He did tell me that if I don't agree with his decision I can take it to the ombudsman who is a step up from him but form what ive seen on this site and my experience so far it seems like they always take the finance companies side.

Feeling a bit disheartened by this but willing to fight it. Do you have any advice?

Cheers,

Joe.

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

Hi Joe,

It is disappointing to hear that, however if you have the adjudicator's email address you may want to frame a question and ask him to explain the following should he decide that the excess mileage charge applies:

There are two clauses which directly conflict with one another: Clause X says if you pay 50% and take reasonable care of the goods then you will pay nothing more. Clause Y talks about paying excess mileage at the end of the contract. You relied on Clause X and gave notice to terminate, paid 50% and took reasonable care of the goods. Can the adjudicator explain why he is applying clause Y over Clause X, when you only sought to rely on clause X. Since the contract was drafted by the finance company and therefore their own fault (despite it being a legal requirement to have the termination statement in the agreement), the benefit of the doubt should be given in favour of the consumer and therefore Clause X should apply.

It already sounds like he has made his mind up on the matter and there is no harm in asking him to clarify the above and then further asking an Ombudsman to review the decision. For some reason, they seem to be homing in on the excess mileage clause saying you need to pay it but skipping over the other clause which is pretty plain and clear to me.

Even if you don't get the decision you want, you can reject the Ombudsman's decision and sit on it and do nothing, presumably as the finance company isn't going to go to court over it. But they may apply a default marker on your account if you refuse to pay it and at that point you may wish to take legal action for breach of data protection. Otherwise its a case of paying up, but the ball is in your court and you need to weigh up the risks

[joekillen92]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

Hi Joe,

It is disappointing to hear that, however if you have the adjudicator's email address you may want to frame a question and ask him to explain the following should he decide that the excess mileage charge applies:

There are two clauses which directly conflict with one another: Clause X says if you pay 50% and take reasonable care of the goods then you will pay nothing more. Clause Y talks about paying excess mileage at the end of the contract. You relied on Clause X and gave notice to terminate, paid 50% and took reasonable care of the goods. Can the adjudicator explain why he is applying clause Y over Clause X, when you only sought to rely on clause X. Since the contract was drafted by the finance company and therefore their own fault (despite it being a legal requirement to have the termination statement in the agreement), the benefit of the doubt should be given in favour of the consumer and therefore Clause X should apply.

It already sounds like he has made his mind up on the matter and there is no harm in asking him to clarify the above and then further asking an Ombudsman to review the decision. For some reason, they seem to be homing in on the excess mileage clause saying you need to pay it but skipping over the other clause which is pretty plain and clear to me.

Even if you don't get the decision you want, you can reject the Ombudsman's decision and sit on it and do nothing, presumably as the finance company isn't going to go to court over it. But they may apply a default marker on your account if you refuse to pay it and at that point you may wish to take legal action for breach of data protection. Otherwise its a case of paying up, but the ball is in your court and you need to weigh up the risks

Hi [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION],

Funny enough I pretty much said that to him on the phone about the clauses contradicting eachother but he still said that I agreed to pay for any excess mileage however the agreement ends.

I will obviously take it to the ombudsman as it's worth a shot.

Could you tell me a bit more on how Ford would be breaching data protection by putting a default on my account? (Please note I have checked my credit file and the Ford account has been wiped off it, no trace of it and my credit score is still good).

Cheers,

Joe.

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

How can you agree to pay the excess mileage charges if you voluntarily terminate the agreement and do not need to pay anything more? that also goes for excess mileage!

There are 3 main credit reference agencies, Call Credit, Experian and Equifax. Lenders don't always use all 3 of them so whilst one report may show it as wiped off, another may still report it as outstanding. Noddle is a free version of Call Credit if you haven't checked that already it may be worthwhile, and keeping an eye on it over the coming months as Ford will generally assign the debt to Link Financial.

As for breach of the DPA, I see the thread below which provides some reasons, though Principle 1 also applies in that it must be processed lawfully.

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ry-Termination

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

Just to add, whilst I was flicking through some saved information. I came across this decision by an Ombudsman which makes reference to ambiguity in the contract, albeit it relates to an insurance policy.

At page 2:

The approach of the court is to look at the ordinary and natural meaning of the words. That is the approach adopted by the ombudsman. Where there is ambiguity in a standard-form contract, the court will interpret the term in the way that is less favourable to the party who supplied the wording. That is also the approach adopted by the ombudsman.

The ombudsman has for thirty years (since the creation of the Insurance Ombudsman Bureau in 1981) been interpreting consumer insurance contract-terms in accordance with the principles of the court.

Also at Page 7, the Ombudsman refers to her initial decision

It is a general principle of English courts that an ambiguous contractual term must be given the interpretation that is less favourable to the party who supplied the wording, which was the insurer in this case. So although I consider that “poor weather” encompasses ash on the wind, if there is any ambiguity about it, this principle will apply.

I think therefore it is clear that this adjudicator does not seem to be applying the correct approach where there is a conflict of terms. In this case there is ambiguity as to the liability in the contract with one clause providing a higher liability than the other, and you may perhaps wish to point that out to the adjudicator in the hope to sway his decision. Whether it helps I do not know but it certainly provides more clarity.

[joekillen92]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

[MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] I supplied the info to the adjudicator regarding how the ombudsman should make a decision regarding conflicting terms in the contract however he's having none of it.

States that he doesn't agree I have taken reasonable care of the goods due to exceeding mileage. (Despite having it serviced at required intervals)

It's now being passed on to the ombudsman and I can send further info to the ombudsman. Any idea on how I can still defend my corner here?

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

Has the adjudicator giving reasons why he does not think so? Has the finance co. Provided evidence to show that the car is in an unreasonable condition as a result of the excess mileage?

This would be for example an independent report which can confirm that the excess mileage caused the mechanical parts of the vehicle to be put in a condition that is beyond reasonable wear and tear. We all know of cause the more mileage you do the parts on a vehicle will wear down over time due to use. Excessive mileage does not prove excessive use.

If not I cannot see how an adjudicator can form the decision himself without seeing such evidence and also without seeing the car in person to determine that he car was in an unreasonable condition. He is simply making the assumption.

Perhaps these questions should be put to the Ombudsman if they haven't been answered.

Either way joe, you don't have to accept the Ombudsmans decision and let them play the next move

[joekillen92]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

Hi [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] as expected the Ombudsman went against me saying Ford have every right to the excess mileage. I've just sat on the decision as a no reply is the same as disagreeing with the decision. If Ford decide to take me to court how much will Ford be able to chase me for considering I owe them £300? Are they able to charge what they want? Or is there a set fee.

Cheers.

[joekillen92]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

[MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] please find attached final decision from Ombudsman

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

Disappointing but not surprising. I near the bottom of page 1 that there is an acknowledgement of two sections on termination, fails to mention that in "Termination: Your Rights" says that once you have complied you will not pay anything more. Then the Ombudsman goes further to say there is no ambiguity despite one section saying one thing and the other creating additional liability.

Also seems odd as to why the Ombudsman does not wish to explain why the CCA allows for excess mileage and hasn't specifically made reference to back up that statement, but rather a generalised one. Whilst they can depart from the law, they should give reasons why they are not following it or giving sufficient reasons to understand how they have applied.

Anyway, you don't have to accept the Ombudsman's decision if you do not want to be bound by it. Ford generally sell the debt on to Link Financial, though I am not aware of Link bringing a claim to court as of yet however since they've purchased the debt its likely that they would have an intention at some point to do so.

As to what you want to do is entirely up to you. You can agree to pay up or defend it in court. The Excess mileage clause is void by virtue of section 100(4) so their only reliance would be on failing to take reaosnable care of the car. Exceeding the contractual mileage limit does not mean you've failed to take care of the car, it is simply a clause to say that you agree to compensate if you go over the agreed limit - it has nothing to do with reasonableness and if Link wanted to argue that, they would need an expert's report on the mechanical soundness of the car, which of course they wouldn't have and neither would Ford.

Worst case scenario if you lost at court, it would be £300 plus application fees which would be less than 100 if I recall. Costs are restricted as it would be a small claims issue.

You may also want to consider sending a Subject Access Request to Ford for all information relating to this account, including any inspection reports, notes on your account etc. That way you can really determine what Ford have and haven't done in relation to the car

Also perhaps have another check on your credit report if you haven;t done so recently in case its been updated and a default has applied by Link Financial

[joekillen92]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

[MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] thanks a lot for all your help. Ive rejected the decision and will just go with the flow from here on. If I get summoned to court I can use all of the great advice you have given me in this thread on Voluntary termination.

Thanks again, really appreciate it.

[R0b]

Re: Voluntary termination of Hire purchase agreement with Ford HELP ME PLEASE

If it comes to that point I will assist where I can, but as always, going to court is a risk for either party and something you need to appreciate. Perhaps you may want to set aside a small amount of money each month to cover the cost if you did lose so you can make the payment immediately, or perhaps even if a court claim is issued, there is nothing to prevent you from offering something to settle on a lower agreed sum if you don't feel comfortable following through with it all, subject to their acceptance.

The main thing I would keep an eye on is any defaults on your credit report.