Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if complaint

[Smilesallround]

Here goes:
1) Attached copy of credit card application ( i have removed my info and signature). If you look at signature box the number 8 appears and then along you have date boxes with date inputted.
2) Sainsburys agreement page 2 doc is the other side of the application.
3) Second credit card agreement

Please read from previous thread the background http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...rom-Sainsburys

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

This seem to be two separate documents where the terms don't relate to each other, we have the application form with your signature dated February 2005. You claim to have applied online, however, as this was so close to the date when a tick box became as valid as a signature, maybe they still followed the policy of sending out hard copies in the post for you to sign. Do you remember what happened when you opened this account?

We then have page 2 which is the reverse of the application form and they appear to be part of the same document. Then we have the other pages which do not correspond at all to the application form, as the charges for overlimit, missed payments and returned payment are just £12 vs £25 late payment and overlimit charges and £20 returned payment fee on the application form. They clearly are two separate documents. The longer document has the following numbers at the end of the body text: 0906-0407 which would suggest they are probably the terms applicable between September 2006 and April 2007, so not the terms from inception, which were the ones on the reverse of the application form.

Obviously I can't comment on the accuracy of the details provided on the application form, i.e. whether it's your handwriting or the right spelling, or your actual details at the time, or your real signature. Only you can tell whether you have enough reason to believe this is not an application form filled in by you. If the handwriting is different from yours and there is the odd spelling mistake here and there, is it possible this was done over the phone or in branch/store? Where you would have provided the details for someone else to write on the form? Your recollection here is key to establish the authenticity of the document.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

With regards to the above, you may want to look at the attached, because there are similarities between the response you received and the particulars of this case:

15. First of all, have the claimants complied with section 1 by providing a true copy of the agreement in this case, and if they have is it legible? I have heard very clear and crafted submissions by both advocates in this case. There is confusion regarding various numbers that appear on documents throughout. There is no doubt that the agreement or the front page of the agreement was signed by the defendant but I have got to be satisfied not that I am sure, because that is the criminal standard, but, on the balance of probability, have the claimants provided, whether reconstructed or not, the terms and conditions that would have been provided at the time of the signing of the agreement.

16. One of the difficulties I find in this case, although there is the signed agreement, there are a number of other documents, terms and conditions, certainly as it is submitted by Mr Newman on behalf of the claimants, that one should look at the documents and they clearly relate to this account. But how can I be satisfied that they do? There is nothing between the original documents signed by him and the various terms and conditions relating to the agreement entered into by the defendant with the claimant to show those terms and conditions relate back to the document with his signature on. There is nothing initially at the top.

17. Also, the original terms and conditions as contended by Mr Newman have a clause, and that is document 199, showing late payment of £15. This is something I have struggled with and it was a question I did ask, were there any other documents, any other variations. We have the defendant’s statements from pages 245 to 260 and they range from a period 3 June 2004 through to 3 October 2005 where it shows a late payment charge of £25. We then have a further document which the evidence was the terms and conditions at the time of the assignment would show a penalty charge of £12. I have got to be satisfied that the claimants in this case have provided all the relevant documents, but I do find it a slight mystery that in the statements provided by or contained within the bundle relating to the defendant’s account, as I have said at pages 245 to 260, seem to have a late payment of £25. That does not come out of thin air, which leads me to believe that there must be further documentation available in this case and it has not been produced.

[Smilesallround]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

No i am pretty certain i applied online for Sainsburys credit card. I did the application online agreed to terms online and got sent the card. I would easily pick up spelling errors and correct and not sign. This app does not seem real. If you look at the credit card application page top right hand BANK Visa..............which bank? What does BANK stand for on its own?

Shall i CCA Sainsburys direct and see what they supply and then i can see if they send me something different?

Im not sure what i should do next.....do i write to them saying they have not fullfilled my request as this is not a true copy of my credit agreement.

I do not want them hounding me coming to my door step. HELP

[Smilesallround]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

Also does a signature have to be on the terms and conditions document by both parties?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

No i am pretty certain i applied online for Sainsburys credit card. I did the application online agreed to terms online and got sent the card. I would easily pick up spelling errors and correct and not sign. This app does not seem real. If you look at the credit card application page top right hand BANK Visa..............which bank? What does BANK stand for on its own?

Shall i CCA Sainsburys direct and see what they supply and then i can see if they send me something different?

Im not sure what i should do next.....do i write to them saying they have not fullfilled my request as this is not a true copy of my credit agreement.

If this has been assigned (sold) to Experto Credite then they would have sourced it from Sainsburys themselves, debt purchasers don't draft agreements, so no point in sending a request to Sainsburys.

If you are convinced this can't possibly be your application form, then you could send something like this:

Dear Sirs

Account No: xyz

Having recently requested a copy of the alleged original Credit Agreement (CCA), in line with s.78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, I was disappointed to receive what can only be described as a fraudulent document, for the following reasons:
[Explain here why you think this is not a true copy of your agreement, for example, it's not your signature, it's not your own handwriting, you applied online and never filled out a form like this, etc.]

Kindly take a look at the following article which may shed some light on what the law considers a 'True Copy' - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8393768.stm I quote, from this article: ""And on the other hand concern that some creditors appear not to understand the nature and extent of their obligations under these sections..."

The OFT advises that lenders would be acting unfairly, and potentially in breach of their consumer credit licenses, if they misled borrowers by:

• hiding or disguising the fact that there was never a proper signed agreement in the first place
• providing only a copy of the current terms and conditions, not the original ones

Sending me a document that clearly was not in place at the time I applied for the card, I think we can both agree that this does indeed directly breach OFT Guidance.

The recent McGuffick and Carey cases confirmed that a lender should submit upon request a valid true copy of the original CCA. In MBNA v McCullagh; the Judge ruled;

"The terms and conditions are plainly not a copy of those on the original agreement. There may only be one difference identified (it is difficult to tell from the illegible copy of the original) but that is enough. The obligation is to provide "a copy of the executed agreement".

This plainly cannot be a copy of the original agreement. It is not open to the claimant to say that the difference is 'de minimis'. They have to provide a copy of the original (reconstituted or otherwise)"

There are also several other recent cases that alleviate the Carey Judgment such as Hayes v HFC, at Blackpool county court in July 2010. She successfully overturned a charging order on her home. Judge Bell agreed that the reconstituted agreement was not accurate. Then you have the case of Kotecha v Phoenix in which Phoenix attempted to recover a debt owed on a HFC bank credit card. The appeal judges agreed the bank had not been able to supply an accurate copy of the original agreement.

In light of the above, I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and look forward to hearing from you within 30 days.

Yours faithfully

Sign using a computer font and send recorded delivery.

I do not want them hounding me coming to my door step. HELP

Have they threatened a doorstep visit? If so, there's a letter you could send, however, it should only be sent once you've received a threat of such a visit. Most such threats are just that, empty threats, should someone actually turn up, you don't have to give them the time of day or speak to them. They have no more right to be there than your neighbour's dog! :beagle:

Also does a signature have to be on the terms and conditions document by both parties?

This is a common misconception, you won't find many credit agreements with the lender's signature on them.

[Smilesallround]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

Thanks for your help. Me looking over and over at these documents i have noticed another credit card agreement sent along with what i scanned i thought it was all the same document. This credit agreement has £25 charges.....which relate to the credit card application.

I am not sure why i have been sent two credit card agreements.......why so many. Thought only the one that applied to my application at the time.

I can upload if you like if you want to see?

Is Sainburys apart of another bank or group? HFC? HSBC? Barclays? Santander?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

Thanks for your help. Me looking over and over at these documents i have noticed another credit card agreement sent along with what i scanned i thought it was all the same document. This credit agreement has £25 charges.....which relate to the credit card application.

I am not sure why i have been sent two credit card agreements.......why so many. Thought only the one that applied to my application at the time.

I can upload if you like if you want to see?

You've already uploaded TWO purported agreements, one with allegedly original application form, the other one probably from 2006-07, the one with the £12 charges instead of £20-£25. Are you saying there was a THIRD? :scared:

Is Sainburys apart of another bank or group? HFC? HSBC? Barclays? Santander?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013...ol-banking-arm

J Sainsbury plc has confirmed plans to buy Lloyds Banking Group's 50% stake in Sainsbury's Bank and take full control of the operation.

The bank was founded in 1997 as a joint venture between Sainsbury's and Bank of Scotland, and was the UK's first supermarket bank.

[Smilesallround]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

Here you go Flaming Parrot link to the other agreement i found with the rest.
http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...r-2-Sainsburys

[Smilesallround]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

You've already uploaded TWO purported agreements, one with allegedly original application form, the other one probably from 2006-07, the one with the £12 charges instead of £20-£25. Are you saying there was a THIRD? :scared:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013...ol-banking-arm

Yes just uploaded it............i have only just seen it thinking its one document. Should have looked more carefully.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

This is a totally separate set of terms, probably running from Nov 2004 to May 2005, if you opened the account in Feb 2005, this would be the applicable terms, however, there is nothing linking these terms to you or the other document with your details and signature, nothing to suggest you agreed to them. If you applied online in Feb 2005 then you probably agreed to them by ticking the box on the site, however, you'd still have to have your name and address against those terms. The issue here is the application form which is the only document that has your details, the others are mere printouts from sets of terms.

As these terms are more likely to relate to the time you open your account, you could try comparing them side to side with the ones on the application form to see if they match.

This changes nothing, if you are convinced that the application form provided isn't a true copy of something you signed, then you could send the letter suggested and see what they respond with.

[Smilesallround]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

Many thanks for your help. Yes I think I will send that letter but one question do I say I applied online? I ask this I don't want to get myself in deeper and they end up producing the right stuff. Shall I just state this is not a true copy of my application as this is not my handwriting, my forename is spelt incorrectly and other details have errors also the terms do not link to the application and a print out?

doesnt that heading at the top giving their name and address and mine link me to it? The bit I've erased off in black

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

Many thanks for your help. Yes I think I will send that letter but one question do I say I applied online? I ask this I don't want to get myself in deeper and they end up producing the right stuff. Shall I just state this is not a true copy of my application as this is not my handwriting, my forename is spelt incorrectly and other details have errors also the terms do not link to the application and a print out?

doesnt that heading at the top giving their name and address and mine link me to it? The bit I've erased off in black

Obviously I couldn't see the bits blanked out, if your name and address were on the terms from 2004/05 then they were probably the ones you agreed to by ticking the box, in which case you wouldn't have had to fill in an application form by hand such as the one supplied. :noidea: That's the problem with online applications from 2005 onwards.

In view of the above, you can just say that the handwriting isn't ours, there are spelling mistakes, etc. and leave the bit about applying online out, let's see what they come up with. :thumb:

[Smilesallround]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

Obviously I couldn't see the bits blanked out, if your name and address were on the terms from 2004/05 then they were probably the ones you agreed to by ticking the box, in which case you wouldn't have had to fill in an application form by hand such as the one supplied. :noidea: That's the problem with online applications from 2005 onwards.

In view of the above, you can just say that the handwriting isn't ours, there are spelling mistakes, etc. and leave the bit about applying online out, let's see what they come up with. :thumb:

You mention this but my name and address also appears in the other agreement I posted up today I have blanked my name and address out, so the 2006 - 2007 agreement applies to me also? It doesn't make sense.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Sainsbury Reply to CCA - Can someone have a look at documents and advise if compl

Don't worry about that for now, lets get to the bottom of the application form. Those are likely to be terms from 2006/07 not from inception. But the other ones from 2004/05 would be the ones, so they would have complied with s.78, the others would be just varied terms. The main question here is the existence of the application form, which you didn't fill in, so where did it come from? :confused2:

Don't mention the 2 sets of terms, let's just see how they explain the existence of the application form. That should keep them busy for a while, they will have to go back to Sainsburys Bank to find out. :thumb: