Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

[Lord_Alcohol]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Just going over Brandon again, the judge makes the distinction between "must" and "should", and points out (elsewhere) that s87 says "must" (provide 14 days form date of service).

The judge by no means dismisses the argument of insufficient time to remedy.

His clincher is in believing that no prejudice was suffered by Brandon because Amex did not take any action until after the 14 days. However, who is to know that Amex would have actually accepted payment of the arrears after the 14 days? They may have told Brandon he was too late.

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Thanks so much LA and all that you have written is true. I have in fact evidence that I warned HSBC prior to me getting in to financial difficlty and asked nicely if they would reduce payments or freeze the interest.

No reply, and not interested. I know that I did try my best to come to an arrangement there is no doubt there at all. Even if I cannot get away with the faulty DN and other technicalities one thing that I am certain is that the court will not look kindly upon HSBC as to how they treated me and refused all my offers to settle.

I will point out that this is an abuse of the courts as I will plea exactly the same arguments to the judge that I have been banging on to HSBC for the past god knows how long.

Also why bloody wait so long to issue proceedings if they knew they had a valid claim, bit strange that since the Brandon case I bet there will be any a claim form from lenders to debtors who thought they were sitting on unenforceable debts on the back of faulty DN's.

How ever this will go I still have time to think about what to do and by the time I finish writing my defence if I proceed I will probably end up in tears as this has been such a long and unecessary emotional ride.

A ride that I did not want to get on and would not had to had HSBC accepted my repeated offers to pay prior to issuing me with a DN.

LA, I can't exactly remeber when HSBC registered a default. I was a vulnerable individual and still bloody am if not more than I was in the beginning.


I will let you know later things I will be putting in my defence.

[Lord_Alcohol]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Some straw-clutching Jumper, if it helps. I think the advice given so far has been sound.

1. Your DN instructs you to destroy and return your card(s) "immediately", ie before expiry of the DN. To me, this sounds like they have already decided to end the agreement. Had you paid the arrears, would you have recieved a new card?

2. There is a technical defence in that the DN does not offer the full entitlement of time. Now I know that this is a technical issue but nevertheless the DN does not comply with the Act. It is possibly 2-3 days short. Could you have remedied if you'd been given the full term?

3. I guess the letters prior to expiry of the DN indicate not, but those letters are valuable IMO as they indicate a willingness to reach a settlement. For that reason, it might be possible to consider a s140 (oh no not again!) defence on the basis that the lender knew you were in dire straits yet refused to assist. Yes, he doesn't have to but as your DN came during the height of the credit crunch (as engineered by the likes of HSBC) it might be worthwhile putting something along those lines in your defence, because HSBC was certainly capable of assisting in a small way and that may have made a huge difference.

4. Were you in any way pressured into taking out the card and/or was your credit limit increased without your prior request? If so, then you could think about using this in your defence to build a picture of someone who may have been 'vulnerable' - and sincerest apologies for the presumption. It may help.

5. When did HSBC record the default with the CRAs? If it was before expiry of the DN that may help, as it shows that they had already made up their minds to terminate (admittedly helped by your letters requesting a plan).

Just a few thoughts. It doesn't look too good I know so I suppose it's a damage-limitation exercise. I think I would be tempted to ask the court to dismiss the claim on the grounds of a defective DN and, failing that, present a picture of a 'vulnerable' individual trying to pay a debt owed to a bank who has clearly been uninterested in offering even the most minimal assistance.

I think your attempts to reach an agreement prior to the DN expiring are important so it might be useful to focus on those in your defence.

LA

[middenmess]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Sorry do not understand what that means mm, is that the interest on the first card or the interest on my agreement?

On the monthly statements that you received for the first 9 months after receiving your credit card, was there any interest charged on items that you purchased using the card, as the 'agreement' appears to say that for the first 9 months there would be no charge for interest?


Re. your last post.

You must remember that these are open forums on which any one can post and that the answers you receive are just peoples opinions and thoughts and any advice that is offered must be considered as such.

There are considerable number of posters who offer really sound and sensible advice and others who have experience of the law and even a few who are qualified legal professionals to be found on various forums but even with these
the decision as to what you do with the advice offered has to be down to you.

Equally you will find large numbers of posters who on a good day can probably differentiate their arse from their elbows who spend their days reading the forums and threads detailing peoples difficulties and problems and then cut and pasting answers from a different thread about a similar scenario and thus gain a high post count but who are still idiots in real life.

Forums are great for garnering other people's thoughts on different issues but when money and your home are the issues then there is no substitute for good legal advice from a good professional in their own field.

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Well after reading so many threads on here, CAG and other sites I think that all forums site team members should make an announemnet in big bold preferably red writing that anyone who has a DN and dose not comply with the cca then there is nothing they can do about.

Many people come to forums as a last and only hope left after exhausting many legal channels. I can see that many many people have been issued with Default Notices which contain many flaws and the advice they receive from many good people and some with not so much knowledge and carry on in the belief that theydo stand some chance of either getting out of the mess they are or some other kind of help.

I know that there are many who did not ever dream of being where they are today whether through their own mistake, negligenece or if life cut them a raw deal. The truth of the matter is that it is a cruel world now and it in the financial world its dog eat dog.

If people do not have a chance of getting anywhere even though they have defective DN'D then I think they should not be receiving advice from other people saying that they do and advising them to inform the creditors and accept unlawful recsission.

I have just read on a thread on CAG a cagger giving advice to someone on their loan, not credit card but a regulated loan that as they have received a faulty DN then it is game over for the lender. Now why would people be allowed to give out that kind of advice if it leads people up the garden path and lose their case.

Really I cannot understand this.

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

And the interest free period?

Sorry do not understand what that means mm, is that the interest on the first card or the interest on my agreement?

[middenmess]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

And the interest free period?

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

I do not always agree with peter, jumper999.

My post would have been different if the agreement had been terminated on the back of the ineffective DN and;
the agreement in question had been deemed unenforceable.

I do however, feel that you have grounds for making a complaint to the ICO.

Thanks AC my agreement was terminated on the back of an ineffective DN
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Hi Jumper

Apologies for mis-reading 'enforceable' as 'unenforceable'--What a muppet! [I have an [overdue!] appointment for an eye test and new glasses this week so perhaps I'll not make that silly mistake again!]

For the first time, I think, I have 'thanked Peter Bard' for his 2 replies as they are spot on in all respects IMO and Angry Cat also agrees with his reasoning.

The reason I asked about the interest rate was because the 'agreement' you posted up showed that transfers and purchases would attract no interest for the first nine months --if I've read it correctly-- so I was clutching at straws just in case they had charged you interest in this period which might mean that the 'agreement' they reconstructed might not have applied to your account.

No probs mm, at that time at night we all need glasses, some to drink out of some to wear LOL!
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

I note that the agreement issue date was Jan. 2006.

were you provided with a second token?
(In other words, were you provided with a second credit card, after the first)

Hi mm, yes I was granted a second credit card, and thank you peter, like i said I will wait too see what I can do before throwing in the towel.

I have never disagreed with the debt I owed and never expected to be treated so unfairly.
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
I have read pt's post and believe his advice and the help that he has offered many is more than we can hope from any solicitor or CAB, and hope that he will be able to show some guidance on my case.

If I am at a dead end with this and have no hope then I will have no choice but to accept defeat as I am not in a position to pay costs at all.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

I note that the agreement issue date was Jan. 2006.

were you provided with a second token?
(In other words, were you provided with a second credit card, after the first)

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Hi Jumper

The reason I asked about the interest rate was because the 'agreement' you posted up showed that transfers and purchases would attract no interest for the first nine months --if I've read it correctly-- so I was clutching at straws just in case they had charged you interest in this period which might mean that the 'agreement' they reconstructed might not have applied to your account.

Well spotted, middenmiss!

Will look again.

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Thank you for your opinion and comments peter, I will take them in and I am not in this to get back at HSBC far from it.

I still have time to decide what is the best way forward and will think about this more.

So what you are saying is that there is no case law that I can refer to and that I will definately lose and get a CCJ gainst me? Because if you are saying that I will for certain then there is no hope of me fighting this? Regardless of what mine or anyone's opinions maybe?

I know this matter has been debated so much and is getting quite dry now that one does not know what to do.

Do you think my case is similar to Brandon's case?

Also what about the charges that HSBC applied to my account, according to them they informed the FOS that they would return all the charges in 2009?

As Brandon's lender was entitled to apply the £25 charge as a Default fee and HSBC have applied many £12 charges?

And I will if I lose pay £1 a month regardless of wether HSBC and the FOS said I could or not, and my I & E will prove this, so that is not a plus point for me it is a fact. It comes down to whether I can accept of having a CCJ entered against my name and how important that is.

I assume that if I lose and get a CCJ the next thing HSBC will want to do is place a charge on my house, which they have threatened me with.........but that is one down fall to being a homeowner isn't it? Soon as things get too hot for lenders out come the threats of charging orders and repossessions.

F ing joke the lot of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HI
I assure you nobody thinks this the slightest bit funny,
To answer your question, no there isn’t any case law to support the “acceptance of the termination” argument on a CCA.
If you go to CAG you will find many who have tried it, and the court has without exception ignored the claim.
Obviously it is your call, but I urge you to consider he possibilities of extra costs and what could happen if you get a judge who has downer on people he considers as trying to evade their responsibilities.
I shall sat no more.
I wish you the very best of luck in whatever you decide to do
Regards
Peter

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

I do not always agree with peter, jumper999.

My post would have been different if the agreement had been terminated on the back of the ineffective DN and;
the agreement in question had been deemed unenforceable.

I do however, feel that you have grounds for making a complaint to the ICO.

[middenmess]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Hi Jumper

Apologies for mis-reading 'enforceable' as 'unenforceable'--What a muppet! [I have an [overdue!] appointment for an eye test and new glasses this week so perhaps I'll not make that silly mistake again!]

For the first time, I think, I have 'thanked Peter Bard' for his 2 replies as they are spot on in all respects IMO and Angry Cat also agrees with his reasoning.

The reason I asked about the interest rate was because the 'agreement' you posted up showed that transfers and purchases would attract no interest for the first nine months --if I've read it correctly-- so I was clutching at straws just in case they had charged you interest in this period which might mean that the 'agreement' they reconstructed might not have applied to your account.

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Thanks AC will wait a while all the same.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Hi
The facts are that the creditor is entitled to reclaim his money, yes I totally agree they acted unreasonably, but you must not take this personally. I assure you they will not. As far as they are concerned you are just an account number, they accepting the £1 a month deal because thy had to. By breaching this ,most equitable arrangement have played right into there hands. They can now take you to court without risking the ire of the FOS.
OK so this is the situation you are in we must accept it and work from here.
First you must forget about” getting your own back on the creditor” they really do not care they will just do whatever they can to get there money back.
Since they have commenced enforcement your only option is damage limitation.
You will receive a CCJ there is no doubt.
I would make it clear to all parties when you accept the judgment that the FOS and the creditor have all agreed that £1 a month is all you can afford and that you earnestly wish to repay what you owe, as can be demonstrated by your previous contact with the creditors.
If the court thinks you are trying to get out of this by the methods proposed they will undoubtedly come down on you like a ton of bricks.
I wish I could tell you otherwise
Peter

Agree.