firthy v Barclays Business Account

[thephoenix]

Sorry my fault..... I'll post simplified posts here.

[thephoenix]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Ok.... I've simplified the posts a bit. Hoipe this makes easier reading.
We will sort out the others in a bit





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FIRTHY Today

I think you're doing a fantastic job on your Tod ..Thanks for all you help
Just been on the legal beagle site and registered under firthy72 so tomorrow i will start a new thread and add this to there site.
I will also type out there defence and original stay order for you and see what sense you can make from it. As.
I took a gamble as it was one of the 1st business accounts that had placed a claim through barclays and posts were a little vague and i/we weren't sure what charges i/we could claim for so i/we decided to claim for the lot as barclays didn't know what they were how could i/we, maybe on the legal beagles site there maybe a bit more info !

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CC

yes you should be making some noise, this claim should not have been stayed. I would like to see their defence though and the original stay order from the court if you have it still.

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FIRTHY

I've been reading your posts on the test case and just checked on the bbc web site and they now say it could take several weeks instead of days for the conclusion !!!
Yes this is the business account and I can't find any paperwork that says "objected to the order" only that they filed a defence to the claim back on the 21st of June 07 and there reasons !!
Do you want me to send you there reasons or do they put the same defence on all claims ??

Just been reading another one of your posts and as its a business account
the claim should not be stayed as the OFT test case has nothing to do with Business accounts !!! am I right should I be ringing the courts / barclays etc and making some noise???

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CC 18th January 2008

Hiya, sorry for the delay... no you have not lost the claim. The courts have postpond judgment until the test case conclusion.
The defendants (the bank) are not permitted to chase you for the amounted debt or apply any interest to that amount.
This is very interesting as it's the first I've come across. Good result in the circumstances.

Could you just confirm that the defendants have not objected to the order?


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FIRTHY 18th January 2008

Just read the last correspondence from the court it states
"upon hearing counsel for the defendant the claimant not appearing nor being represented"
In all my trauma I missed the court date

It is ordered that

1) This action be stayed pending determination at first instance of all the issues (both those currently agreed to be tried as preliminary issues as well as any substantive issues that are added in by way of amendment) in the section between the office of fair trading and the defendant and others in the high court of justice, Queens Bench Division, Commercial Court under reference 2007 Folio 1186 ("the OFT Claim") because the OFT claim raising issues for determination similar to thoses arising in the current case

2)It is a condition of the said stay that the defendant shall not, whether by action, bankruptcy, distress, or by any other legal process, take any steps to enforce against or recover from the claimant, during the period of stay, that part of any debt claimed by the defendant that consists of bank charges (and insterst thereon) the lawfulness of which is challenged in the claimant's claim and which are a type that is the subject of the OFT Claim ("the Disputed Charges") A breach of this condition shall not automatically terminate the stay, but shall entitle the claimant to apply to the court.

3) For the avoidance of doubt, the defendant is not prevented, during the stay, from operating the claimant;s account according to its usual practice and/or terms, including in relation to the debiting of all charges and interest therefrom nor from the claimants account and exercising any rights of set-off in respect thereof.
4) The parties do have permission to apply.

5) The costs be reserved

6) Paragraphs 1-5 inclusive of this order shall not come into effect for seven days during which time if any party objects to
the order they may apply for the order to be set aside or varied.

Have i lost the claim !!!!!!!!!!!!

-----------------------------------
CC

Got it, Read it, Had a laugh (Barclays defence)

They love there little games, good job they are on the same side as you or they could be a danger to someone

Have you guessed it yet ? ? ?

nothing to worry about just send the schedule a doc off to them and the courts as usual.

they have got one thing right though which is the 6 year limitation, not sure if you are claiming back further than that or its just their standard defence, nothing you need to do about it though

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FIRTHY 14th July 2007

Hi, I'm starting to panic received notice of transfer and defence filed dated 21st june

There defence is lengthy and refering to Business account charges and as we previously acknowlegde that business accounts were pretty complex over charges etc and we decided to '****** it and claim the lot' now there quoting x,y and Z.

Also it is ordered that
1) The filing of an allocation questionaire be dispensed with in this case unless the district Judge at the court of transfer orders otherwise. **
Note : Any party affected by this order may under rule 3.3 (5) apply to have it set aside, varied or stayed. Such a party must apply under rule 23.3 within 14 days of service of this order.
** Please note that an allocation fee may be payable in this instance. Please contact the court of transfer for further details.


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FIRTHY 22nd June 2007
Received letter dated the 8th march in reply to my letter dated 17th Jan offering me £630.
I sent letter back 28th April saying no and started Claim process if not paid in 7 days !
No reply so started court proceedings.
My claim was issued on the 10th may and deemed served on the 15th May defendant has until the 29th May to reply.
Then received Notice that acknowledgement of service has been filed dated the 30th May and they have another 28 days from the date of service of the claim form to file a defence.
So Wednesday 27th June is DDAY.
What do I do now just wait till then ?

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FIRTH 27th April 2007

Just updating - Just sent Barclays a refusal letter (£630) 7 day to pay up £7643, or issuing CC of £ 9835 Costs. Wish me luck.x

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FIRTHY

Rang my small business banker this morning guess what "on voicemail" not taking calls today so got transfered to another small business banker guess what "on voicemail" in appointments allday - what was the point of that

Rang support spoke to a fantastic lady who explained all she could with regards to the Barclays Abbrev charges language
BDC Merc Vch = switch card transaction (barclays debit card) why didn't I think of that

had fantastic chat about putting the world to rights and I eventually came clean and told her why all the questions she completely understood and she advised that she personally is claiming her o/h's bank charges from his student days. Shes says to remember things are differant between personal and business accounts as far as she understands on the business accounts all that can be claimed against for is paid referral Fee's (RF) and unpaid Fee's (UNP) I think i have a GSCE now in barclays language

We agreed that we had no quibbles over charges just the amount that's

I think now that I am going to claim ALL and wait for Barclays to spend 6 days + sorting there ****ty language out. bring it on

PS.
Also found out why my SBBM ( small business bank manager) was out of the office it was because the branch got robbed this morning by 3 men and stole a huge amount of money so the branch closed today I presume it was SB customers who got feed up with trying to work out barclays charges abbrev and decided to sod court and just take there money back themselves.x

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CC
right ok. claim for the ones we said in much earlier post. and for the commission charges where they havent given you a breakdown claim the lot as youve no way of knowing the breakdown so their hardluck.


bdc merc vch? is this one off ? have no idea what this is

maintenace fee the same as account fee.


account control fee is paid referral so a penalty.

bloody hell like you say barclays with their abbrev!!!! for the moment only 6 years but keep the other 2 years

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FIRTHY

looking at 1998 statements (provided by barclays - mircofiche)

auto entries 19 @ .45 = 8.55
manual trnsfers 3 @.45 = 1.35
stndard enrtries 137 @ .64 = 78.68
maintenance fee £7.50
commission charge 105.08

So as you said these charges add up to the total taken as commission charge but confusion 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 statements dont show breakdowns of the above.

1998.1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002 do and these still are the statements provided by barclays (mircofiche) these years show
auto entries @.45
stndard entries @.64
bdc merc vch @ 2.70
maintenance fee @ 7.50
a/c control fee @12.00

I dont know what bdc merc vch are ? is this claimable ? Barclays are really good at confusing there charges.x

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CC
hi the commission charges will vary quarter depending on how many paid referrals etc you had. for example

xx month on his advance notication of charges

8 non automated debits @ .59 = 4.72
8 credits paid in @ .75 = 6,00
8 cheques paid in .28 = 2.24
13 statements posted @ .95 = 12.35

above i wont be claiming for as service although am very damn tempted!

renewal fee 87.50 (varies every 1/4) (claiming back)
account fee 9.00 (the same every 1/4 so wont claim that back)
11 paid referral fee (which used to be called account control fee) @ 30 = 330 (claiming these back!)

so all of the above makes up the total commission charges. which is then transfeered to the actual statement but not with a total breakdown,

so to work out you really need the advance notice of charges as these only give the breakdown.

did you send a Data Protection Act off to barclays re past 6 years statements?


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FIRTHY
Honest last one
Got it thanks.x Apologises I'm new to this sort of thing. Do I wait for Milly to reply or contact her ?
The account Control fee charge is £12 each and I have 59 of them ? forgot to clarify manual entries is that claimable ??

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CC

Just star the court process and add the 8%

Barclays
Account Fee no
Account Control fee no but let spartan or someone else confirm that one for you
Maintenance Fee No
Late Fee Overdraft Yes
Non auth debits Yes
unpaid outs Yes

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FIRTHY
Because its a business account I have all statements but I wasn't quite sure what I could claim against so I thought I would see what figure they would get first then compare it with mine alittle bit cheeky but at least I got a figure back unlike the YB (personal account) they just gave me the :rulez:so I am now filling in the schedule A doc for court letter on a 14 day notice Is that OK
PS Would love to say you and your site is fab and I have already passed it on and I wont forget to make a donation when I get my cheques.x

[Amy]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

So it's been stayed, but is a business account? Is that right?

If so, you could always try writing to the court (nicely and politely) suggesting that they reconsider applying the stay as this case concerns a business account and, as such, has nothing to do with the test case.

[firthy72]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Sorry my fault..... I'll post simplified posts here.

Soz I'm trying but you're obviously alot quicker :okay:

[firthy72]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Okay i'll just follow your lead. Cheers

[thephoenix]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Okay i'll just follow your lead. Cheers

Tis ok not a prob.

just don't follow my lead i kind of deleted the whole damn thread, too early in the morning for me

Just carry on from here and we will do what is necessary to continue with this claim.

Good to see you by the way.

[firthy72]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

So it's been stayed, but is a business account? Is that right?

If so, you could always try writing to the court (nicely and politely) suggesting that they reconsider applying the stay as this case concerns a business account and, as such, has nothing to do with the test case.

Yes its a Business Acc which has been stayed !!!
I will have a go at a letter nice & politely its worth a go ?:okay:

[Amy]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Yes its a Business Acc which has been stayed !!!
I will have a go at a letter nice & politely its worth a go ?:okay:

I had two DPA claims stayed, I wrote a letter to the Judge and one got lifted, so it is definitely worth a try.

[firthy72]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Tis ok not a prob.

just don't follow my lead i kind of deleted the whole damn thread, too early in the morning for me

Just carry on from here and we will do what is necessary to continue with this claim.

Good to see you by the way.

:okay: Its the blind leading the blind then.lol
I'll type the defence claim and stay so you can see there reasons.
Ps like the new user name good pun

[firthy72]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

This is there Defence dated 11th June 2007 - I Quote

"1. The particulars of claim do not provide details of particulars of the account in question and/or the precise charges alleged to have been unlawful, or the dates thereof. To the extent it is alleged that the claimant incurred bank charges on the claimants account for unauthorised borrowings (whether unpaid fees for returned cheques, "Paid referal fees" or any such fees), the defendant puts the claimant to strict proof of each charge and the date thereof.
2. The particulars of the claim are summary in nature. Accordingly, this Defence is summary in nature and the defendant reserves the right to amend this statement of case in due course.
3. The defendant's is entitled to charge the claimant for unauthorised borrowings by the reason of its standard terms and conditions. The claimant accepted the same when the account was opened, including (in particular but without limitation) the following terms and conditions (which are summarised);
a. The Defendant's right to charge "PAID REFERAL FEE" where the defendant pays an amount ( either by compulsion or election) which causes the account to become overdrawn - £35 per item (previously £30).
b. The Defendant's right to charge an administration fee is any cheques, standing order or direct debit cannot be paid because of insufficient cleared funds in the account - £35 per item (previously £30).
c. The Defendant's entitlement, if the claimant becomes overdrawn without an overdraft limit, to charge interest at the unauthorised borrowing rate on the excess balance.
4. The Defendant;s standard terms and conditions give the claimant a fair transparent view of those terms and the charges applicable for unauthorised borrowings (including where the account is overdrawn without an overdraft limit or where the claimant exceeds the authorised overdraft limit).
5. If and to the extent it is the claimants case that the failure to make necessary payments and / or failure to remain within authorised overdraft limits and / or failure to arrange an authorised overdraft constituted a breach of the terms applying to the account and that the contractual entitlement to debit charges from the claimants account constitutes a liquidated damage clause, the same is denied. The charges constitute payments the claimant agreed to make by reason of the terms and conditions of the account and were consideration for the defendant advancing credit to the claimant, which the defendant was under no obligation to advance. The Defendant was entitled to impose such charges and interest when the claimant incurred the overdraft.
6. Accordingly, it is denied that the legal principles relating to liquidated damages caused and penalty charges are relevant or applicable to the facts set out above. Further or alternatively it is denied that any such charges constitute unlawful penalty charges or are in breach of the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999 (particularly but with out limitation to, paragraph 1(e) of schedule 2).
7. Therefore it is denied that the charges were unlawfully debited from the account.
8. If and to the extent the claimant incurred charges on the account, this was caused by the claimant having gone into overdraft without having agreed with the defendant an authorised overdraft facility or to increase the overdraft facility and / or the failure to make payments to bring the balance of the account back into credit.
9. Its is averred that the said charges and interest are and remain lawful and inforceable and that the defendant was entitled to debit the same.
10. The defendant denies that it is liable to the claimant for the sums claimed and interest as pleaded or at all. In the alternative if (which is denied) the said charges are unenforceable and constituted a breach of contract by the defendant, those charges which were applied to the account prior to Th May 2001 are not recoverable because they are timed barred under the terms of the limitation Act 1980 in that more than six years have elapsed since the accrual of the cause of action.
11. In the alternative, and without prejudice to matters stated above of (which is denied) the said charges and interest or any part thereof are unlawful or unenforceable as alleged by the claimant or at all, and the charges were a consequence of the breach of contract by the claimant, the defendant has nonetheless suffered loss and damage as a consequence of such a breach of contract in allowing the account to go into unauthorised overdraft. Accordingly, in the event the defendant is unable to rely on its express entitlement to enforce the charges as set out above, it will seek to recover to the extent necessary such loss and damage as it actually suffered, which will not necessarily be limited to the value of the said charges, and the defendant seeks to set off such sums against any liability owed hereunder to the claimant."

[Paule]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Can you post up your POC, then we can compare with the defence

Cheers, PKea

[firthy72]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Original stay order for the court 4th October 2007

UPON READING THE COURT FILE:
AND UPON HEARING Counsel for the Defendant the Claimant not appearing nor being represented

IT IS ORDERED THAT:

1. This action be stayed pending determination at first instance of all the issues (both those currently agreed to be tried as Preliminary Issues as well as any Substantive Issues that are added in by way of amendment) in the High Court of Justice, Queens Bench Division, Commercial Court under reference 2007 Folio 1186 ("the OFT Claim") because the OFT Claim raising issues for determination similar to those arising in the current case.
2. It is a condition of the said stay that the Defendant shall not, whether by action, bankruptcy, distress, or by any other legal process, take steps to enforce against of recover from the claimant, during the period of the stay, that part of any debt claimed by the defendant that consists of Bank charges (and interest thereon) the lawfulness of which is challenged in the claimants claim and which are of a type that is the subject of the OFT Claim ("the Disputed Charges"). A breach of the condition shall not automatically terminate the stay, but shall entitle the Claimant to apply to the court.
3. For the avoidance of doubt, the defendant is not prevented, during the stay, from operating the claimants account according to its usual practices and / or terms, including in relation to the debiting of all charges and interest therefrom nor from the claimants account and exercising ant rights of set-off in respect thereof.
4. The parties do have permission to apply.
5. The cost's be reserved.
6. Paragraph's 1-5 inclusive of this order shall not come into effect for Severn days during which time if any party objects to the order they may apply for the order to be set aside or varied."

[Amy]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Is this a Woolwich account or a Barclays account?

[firthy72]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

All up to date now !! I'm knackered haven't done this much typing since school lol.
Any thoughts on the bumf will be much appreciated.

[firthy72]

Re: firthy v Barclays Business Account

Is this a Woolwich account or a Barclays account?

Barclays Business Current Account :okay: