Irresponsible lending

[Sparkie1723]

Re: Irresponsible lending

This case could be used I think ........to say that the Bank Manager in his wisdom should have advised Croc that it was not a proper thing to do, that these loans were not for the purpose he was asking the loans to be made for..l.....they were to assist in his education fees

Sparkie


Verity and Spindler v Lloyds Bank plc (1995) CLC 1557
A bank manager advised Verity and Spindler to buy a particular property, saying that it would be a viable project for re-development, having previously advised them to turn down another property. Verity and Spindler acted on the advice and borrowed from the bank to fund the work. The work took much longer than anticipated causing them financial loss. It was held that the bank manager had assumed the role of financial adviser and therefore also owes a duty to advise on the wisdom of the proposition. -

[croc]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Thank you all for your input. I will reply to everybody individually.
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Were the loans interest free until 6 months after graduation ?

Just wondering on the Cash Isa recommendation - interest free loan invested in a cash ISA for a couple of years then the original capital repaid before interest starts becoming payable could make you a small profit in interest. But I very much doubt if the bank manager should have been lending for such a reason. Maybe why he isn't there any more. It certainly doesn't sound like you really NEEDED to borrow the money (ie it wasn't to pay student fees, digs, food, bills etc) - just it was there on a plate and the bank manager made it sound attractive ?

Did you make the first approach to the bank for the first loan ?
Did you hold your main current account with the same bank ?

I can't see it passing muster as irresponsible lending in court and getting you free of repaying the debts - but that kind of behaviour and sales practice towards lending to students (medical or otherwise) should probably be taken to the OFT/FSA.

Just to clarify. I did not approach the bank for a loan. I went and saw the person in question as I needed to open an account for our graduation committee and the loan was mentioned and sold then.
In terms of the Cash ISA...the loan was NOT interest free. I paid interest, but was told by the manager that its the lowest he's ever known it and feels as though it has no place to go but up so if i fix my interest and put it in a ISA, i would eventually make money. I did not NEED to borrow the money, i do bank mainly with Natwest, which showed that i got paid plenty from my part time job and student loans. It was there on a plate numerous times and i was young and stupid. I feel that as a student, you're a bit vulnerable, and the bank knew that i would be in a secure job (pretty much 100% guaranteed a job) and in a job that you cant default (looks really bad) but it has meant i have had to take a year out of my training and do some extra work to pay back this loan and get on top of my debt.
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FOS's view on similar circumstances (less so but similar) (can't find any case law similar as most is to do with over consolidation of loans and sod all risk scoring)

Assessment wise I suppose, I don't know, that medical students are more or less certain to be in full time employment after graduation - I'm not sure how that type of future assessment is, or should be, made. Were you also working at the time ?

I was working part time earning about £250 per month. I knew i had poor credit at the time. I tried to buy a £600 tv on finances and got rejected. I was told by the manager that they can "overrule" the credit checks.
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The maximum non law student loan is £20k which corresponds with your first post. The idea is that the person studying medicine will then go on to become a doctor and therefore earn a good salary which then means that bank can look at the long term relationship with the bank, ie relationship manager with packaged account, mortgage. credit card, investment portfolio, etc ,etc ie the whole 9 yards.
For whatever reason, the bank no longer offers this anymore.

The max then was 20k. But i kept borrowing and paying back. Paying back when i made a bit of money. I was using the money for capital to try to gain more money. Obviously i was stupid and inexperienced and we all know what happened to stocks and shares after 2007.....
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I know this is not your question right now but what about Payment Protection Insurance (PPI), was you also sold the ppi with the loan?

Just in case there is a reclaim here of being mis sold the PPI, I thought I should ask, hope you don't mind.

I declined PPI, i thought it was a waste of money!
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This case could be used I think ........to say that the Bank Manager in his wisdom should have advised Croc that it was not a proper thing to do, that these loans were not for the purpose he was asking the loans to be made for..l.....they were to assist in his education fees

Sparkie


Verity and Spindler v Lloyds Bank plc (1995) CLC 1557
A bank manager advised Verity and Spindler to buy a particular property, saying that it would be a viable project for re-development, having previously advised them to turn down another property. Verity and Spindler acted on the advice and borrowed from the bank to fund the work. The work took much longer than anticipated causing them financial loss. It was held that the bank manager had assumed the role of financial adviser and therefore also owes a duty to advise on the wisdom of the proposition. -

The bank manager knew i got my student fees paid for. He knew exactly what the loan was used for.
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

This case could be used I think ........to say that the Bank Manager in his wisdom should have advised Croc that it was not a proper thing to do, that these loans were not for the purpose he was asking the loans to be made for..l.....they were to assist in his education fees

Sparkie


Verity and Spindler v Lloyds Bank plc (1995) CLC 1557
A bank manager advised Verity and Spindler to buy a particular property, saying that it would be a viable project for re-development, having previously advised them to turn down another property. Verity and Spindler acted on the advice and borrowed from the bank to fund the work. The work took much longer than anticipated causing them financial loss. It was held that the bank manager had assumed the role of financial adviser and therefore also owes a duty to advise on the wisdom of the proposition. -

The bank manager knew i got my student fees paid for . He knew exactly what the loan was used for.

[Caspar]

Re: Irresponsible lending

At the risk of upsetting someone, this post does not ring true to me. I know many students and not one has gained a loan without first filling in paperwork.

I find it hard to believe any bank manager would lend money on a student loan for gambling and purchasing of shares. They would surely lose their job.

As for the bank's statement the person has now retired, they can be recalled to a witness box.

I apologise sincerely if I am way out of line here, but it just doesn't have the ring of truth to it a genuine irrepsonsible lending post would.

Perhaps some copies of the agreements for the amounts mentioned with personal details blanked out would help prove the veracity of the post.

[Caspar]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Indeed, testing the water. No doubt I can afford to pay the loans back over several years but i feel that i got trapped very early one when i was young and somewhat immature.

So you are a doctor of medicine? Some 10 years-ish into practising? I would imagine a highly regarded practitioner?

Now you openly confess to wanting to avoid repaying some of the debt you ran up as a student. I do not think you will find many on this site who will condone debt avoidance. What were the senior politicians remarks over the recent riots? Along the lines of, "If you're old enough to do it, you're old enough to be held responsible for it." Surely this same line of argument follows here.

You must be highly intelligent, not only to have qualified as a doctor, but to have done so while seemingly doing so little academic study. Medicine is an extremely demanding, arguably the most demanding degree (or actually two degrees is it not!) that you can do. Incidentally, what happened during years 4 and 5 of your degree, did you suddenly become responsible or did you continue in this vein? You have omitted the compulsory second degree medical doctors have to undertake.

Yes, many of us are in debt, and many, myself included, have made great sacrifices as a result of that debt. But some of the consequences have been faced and some still are being - at times it is extremely difficult for me to face thes consequences, but face them I must.

I don't want sympathy and I certainly don't want to avoid repaying everything I can. I think you'll find a similar attitude amongst most posters here. We don't do debt avoidance, but we will help all we can with a serious debt problem.

[croc]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Guys, I"m not trying to avoid my debt. I intend to pay every penny, but I thinks things have to be bought to light and changes be made....

[Caspar]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Responsible lending does go hand in hand with responsible borrowing...you do seem to be on top of the loans and they are being repaid however slowly - so I'm guessing you are just testing the water to see if there is any way to absolve yourself of the responsibility for repayment - maybe of just the interest being charged? by looking at irresponsible lending angles.

Indeed, testing the water.

Croc, thank for replying, and apologies once again if I have misinterpreted your thread.

However, the two quotations above seem to indicate clear debt avoidance, if not in full then in part.

Sadly it does not ring true to me still - purely a personal opinion. This is based not only on the content of your posts, but the grammar and syntax are simply inconsitent with one educated to your standard.

The way you address people is inconsistent with that of a doctor.

You say you needed a loan for your graduation committee - where did you train? I have attended three British Universities, I have friends who have attended most of the others and certainly the bigger, longer established ones; Not one of these has a Graduation Committee. A Graduation Committee is something commonly found found in the US where, of course, graduation has a totally different meaning from in the UK.

It is, of course, not impossible that you were trained in the US, but I believe it is impossible that you were trained in the US and given a student loan in the UK with the ability to pop into your local UK branch to sign a pre-agreed loan agreement. Surely you see my suspicions?

I shall reiterate what I said last night, that the posting of these agreements with relevant personal details deleted would add great substance to your thread.

As a pure aside, what is your area of medicine now?

[leclerc]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Guys, I"m not trying to avoid my debt. I intend to pay every penny, but I thinks things have to be bought to light and changes be made....

Changes have been made, they don't offer the loan anymore. With regards to the fact that the bank manager KNEW every single piece of spending, that is a fallacy to assume that they do know everything. We think they do, we think they care, but ultimately, they don't.

I would add that the Professional Loan can be used for whatever purpose you want to use it for. It They do not stipulate that you HAVE to use it for your studies.

Caspar, I need to take you up on that issue of the Graduation Committee. Croc did not say that it was for graduation. I worked for more or less 8 years with Cambridge University Students/Anglia Ruskin University students so there are a huge amount of university societies and Graduation Committee could have been for the cough cough alcohol consumption, get it out of the system social at the end of the degree.

I think the issue of whether you would make money is slightly misleading because the loan rate and interest rates at the time were not too dissimilar and you didn't start to pay it back until you have graduated if memory serves me right(but will check that info) so technically you would make money initially over the term of the course if that money went into the ISA. The only rule is that it is repaid over 10 years and you do not get the first amount until after the first year so effectively your loan is 20k over 5 years(given that medical students generally graduate after 6 years study).

I understand you're viewpoint and I am sure you understand our viewpoint so I guess the ultimate question is really this:
What do you want to get from this issue? Are we looking at unenforceable credit agreements? Are we looking at debt cancellation?
Why have you taken a year out of training?
What are the repayments on the loan? The rate of interest is pretty low and comparable with commercial loan rates as well. I still find it difficult to
Ultimately, what is the issue we are looking at?

NatWest provided at the time a Professional Loan Scheme in which your arm is not twisted into taking. You took it up, you increased it up the maximum and can pay it back at a "stretch". The bank no longer offers that product anymore either so we cannot campaign to have it removed either.

[Caspar]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Thanks Leclerc,

I did say the loan was for a Graduation Committee for which I apologise. However the point still stands that UK institutions do not have Grduation Committees in the same sense as the US. Google them and see how many you can find in relation to any UK university offering medicine as an option.

What I was trying to get across was that the entire thread, to my mind, remains suspect. My belief is that it is not genuine, but I stress this is purely my view and I apologise of the OP is 100% bona fide.

[croc]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Thanks Leclerc,

I did say the loan was for a Graduation Committee for which I apologise. However the point still stands that UK institutions do not have Grduation Committees in the same sense as the US. Google them and see how many you can find in relation to any UK university offering medicine as an option.

What I was trying to get across was that the entire thread, to my mind, remains suspect. My belief is that it is not genuine, but I stress this is purely my view and I apologise of the OP is 100% bona fide.

Nooo, the Loan wasn't for a Graduation Committee. I went in to open a bank account for the Graduation Committee. Knowing that I would have access to 100's of medical students, the manger sold me the loan. Everything I said is 100% genuine. Although i'm not sure if i'm getting my point across properly.
Again, just a reminder. I intend to pay off all loan. Debt avoidance and not paying dues are the reason for the current economic climate, I wanted to share my story with you guys and get others views on it....

[leclerc]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Thanks Leclerc,

I did say the loan was for a Graduation Committee for which I apologise. However the point still stands that UK institutions do not have Grduation Committees in the same sense as the US. Google them and see how many you can find in relation to any UK university offering medicine as an option.

What I was trying to get across was that the entire thread, to my mind, remains suspect. My belief is that it is not genuine, but I stress this is purely my view and I apologise of the OP is 100% bona fide.

http://www.shef.ac.uk/medicine/pgsociety/committee

is one example in the UK, ie Post Grad society committee. It's a graduate committee for a society.

[croc]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Croc, thank for replying, and apologies once again if I have misinterpreted your thread.

However, the two quotations above seem to indicate clear debt avoidance, if not in full then in part.

Sadly it does not ring true to me still - purely a personal opinion. This is based not only on the content of your posts, but the grammar and syntax are simply inconsitent with one educated to your standard.

The way you address people is inconsistent with that of a doctor.

You say you needed a loan for your graduation committee - where did you train? I have attended three British Universities, I have friends who have attended most of the others and certainly the bigger, longer established ones; Not one of these has a Graduation Committee. A Graduation Committee is something commonly found found in the US where, of course, graduation has a totally different meaning from in the UK.

It is, of course, not impossible that you were trained in the US, but I believe it is impossible that you were trained in the US and given a student loan in the UK with the ability to pop into your local UK branch to sign a pre-agreed loan agreement. Surely you see my suspicions?

I shall reiterate what I said last night, that the posting of these agreements with relevant personal details deleted would add great substance to your thread.

As a pure aside, what is your area of medicine now?

Thank you. I do see your suspicions. But ask your self this question, why would I make this up??
I am a Doctor, 2nd year into being qualified from a UK university. The reason behind taking a year out is because if you locum as a Doctor, you earn up to twice as much compared to if you were in a training contract.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the way you address people is inconsistant with that of a doctor" - We all have to remove the stereotypical image of a doctor from our heads. I'm a 24 years old (again, some may question my age and the time frame after which i qualified, but its the truth) young man that is addressing people in a Forum. Clearly if i was writing professional letters, I would be addressing all of you somewhat differently. As for grammar and syntax, I write mots of these messages on my iPhone, so I take shortcuts. Sorry.

[croc]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Changes have been made, they don't offer the loan anymore. With regards to the fact that the bank manager KNEW every single piece of spending, that is a fallacy to assume that they do know everything. We think they do, we think they care, but ultimately, they don't.

I would add that the Professional Loan can be used for whatever purpose you want to use it for. It They do not stipulate that you HAVE to use it for your studies.

Caspar, I need to take you up on that issue of the Graduation Committee. Croc did not say that it was for graduation. I worked for more or less 8 years with Cambridge University Students/Anglia Ruskin University students so there are a huge amount of university societies and Graduation Committee could have been for the cough cough alcohol consumption, get it out of the system social at the end of the degree.

I think the issue of whether you would make money is slightly misleading because the loan rate and interest rates at the time were not too dissimilar and you didn't start to pay it back until you have graduated if memory serves me right(but will check that info) so technically you would make money initially over the term of the course if that money went into the ISA. The only rule is that it is repaid over 10 years and you do not get the first amount until after the first year so effectively your loan is 20k over 5 years(given that medical students generally graduate after 6 years study).

I understand you're viewpoint and I am sure you understand our viewpoint so I guess the ultimate question is really this:
What do you want to get from this issue? Are we looking at unenforceable credit agreements? Are we looking at debt cancellation?
Why have you taken a year out of training?
What are the repayments on the loan? The rate of interest is pretty low and comparable with commercial loan rates as well. I still find it difficult to
Ultimately, what is the issue we are looking at?

NatWest provided at the time a Professional Loan Scheme in which your arm is not twisted into taking. You took it up, you increased it up the maximum and can pay it back at a "stretch". The bank no longer offers that product anymore either so we cannot campaign to have it removed either.

Fair point. The payments are low. I now owe £16200, and I pay around £230 per month. I'm actually not sure what interest I pay. Ultimatley I think what happened is completely wrong and it shouldn't happen to any of my younger peers. I think issues like this need to be bought to light, or they will simply continue to happen.
One of my friend (who i introduced) asked for £7000. The bank manager walks out with a bunch of A4 sheets of papers and states
"I have to ask you something, their seems to be several transactions daily to William Hill (online gambling site)"
Friend simply states he enjoys online poker.
and the response from the manger is
"you seem to be winning, keep up the good work ".
Now the above may seem fabricated or untrue but I can assure you that it isn't. Thinks like this shouldn't happen. I want to take steps to ensure that they don't in the future.
As for the year out, its as I explained in my previous post. I will simply earn more money to clear my debt.

[croc]

Re: Irresponsible lending

At the risk of upsetting someone, this post does not ring true to me. I know many students and not one has gained a loan without first filling in paperwork.

I find it hard to believe any bank manager would lend money on a student loan for gambling and purchasing of shares. They would surely lose their job.

As for the bank's statement the person has now retired, they can be recalled to a witness box.

I apologise sincerely if I am way out of line here, but it just doesn't have the ring of truth to it a genuine irrepsonsible lending post would.

Perhaps some copies of the agreements for the amounts mentioned with personal details blanked out would help prove the veracity of the post.

I will ask the bank for copies of the agreements and scan them in.

[leclerc]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Fair point. The payments are low. I now owe £16200, and I pay around £230 per month. I'm actually not sure what interest I pay. Ultimatley I think what happened is completely wrong and it shouldn't happen to any of my younger peers. I think issues like this need to be bought to light, or they will simply continue to happen.
One of my friend (who i introduced) asked for £7000. The bank manager walks out with a bunch of A4 sheets of papers and states
"I have to ask you something, their seems to be several transactions daily to William Hill (online gambling site)"
Friend simply states he enjoys online poker.
and the response from the manger is
"you seem to be winning, keep up the good work ".
Now the above may seem fabricated or untrue but I can assure you that it isn't. Thinks like this shouldn't happen. I want to take steps to ensure that they don't in the future.
As for the year out, its as I explained in my previous post. I will simply earn more money to clear my debt.

But the Professional Trainee Loan is NOT in operation for current students so it won't happen to younger peers because it cannot happen.
The conversation above also states that the person states that they are playing online poker. It does not say, I gamble quite on lot on the gee gees and am down quite a lot of money. A bank cannot dictate what you do with your money and if they did, I'd have told them to get stuffed(maybe slightly differently).

Do you mean working in the private medical sector?(I assume you are now a qualified doctor, is that right?)

[Caspar]

Re: Irresponsible lending

Forgive my suspicion - I did apologise in advance if I was wrong, but as I'm sure you appreciate posters do come on here who are not genuine,and there were elements of these posts in your thread. I have no illusions about young doctors - my nephew has just qualified and is working very long hospital hours.

I'm still slightly puzzled about the 4th and 5th years of your degree and what happened in those as they were not mentioned, though I may know the answer to this.

The loan is no longer available anyway as Leclerc has confirmed, so it would not happen again even if it did happen this time.

As for the general point, at some stage in your life, you have to start taking responsibility for your own affairs and living with the consequences of your actions or inactions. As a medical student you clearly have brains and if you had no financial sense then, at least having brains will have taught you a lesson well learnt now. Every cloud has a silver lining as they say!