Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

[Guest]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

My apologies, of course, Cetelco. I am confusing the letter of the law with the spirit thereof. I honestly didn't realise that the presumption of innocence only existed within certain parts of British Law. That shaft of decency is now no more than a limp twiglet dangling from the tree of what I once considered as life itself.

Please know that I am PRAISING the very system that you seem to think I am calling into question. I VALUE my freedom to voice my unlearnéd opinion here - and upon this sceptred isle. I do NOT question that freedom.

What I detest is the belief held by many that - as a condition of that freedom - I am not allowed to question THEM.

I've been there in CAG. The 'delicious irony' I'm feeling is one of déja vu. I'm here because I was asked to be here. Why are YOU here ?

It is not a matter of letter and spirit, but of civil and criminal. The police must be allowed to investigate alleged crimes and, where necessary charge those they believe to be responsible. However, as a defence against the resources and might of the state, private individuals are (under English Common Law) innocent until proven guilty. Furthermore, the police themselves do not prosecute, but present their evidence to the CPS, who make a determination regarding whether or not to launch a prosecution.

If a fraud has been perpetrated, I have faith that it will be uncovered and those responsible will be dealt with. However, in the absence of a conviction in a court of law, those alleged to be involved, despite being charged, are still innocent.

Who are they, to whom you refer and who you are not allowed to question?

Finally, what am I doing here? Well, along with Celestine, Ashley and Amethyst, I founded this site.

[rippedoffandraging]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Interesting replies and thanks to those who were constructive . Some people seem to have a misplaced confidence in both the police and the justice system. I wouldn't be "interfering" if I shared this confidence and thought that the case was progressing in a satisfactory manner. I'm a civvy who works in law enforcement. Fraud is a complicated crime and to be honest the authorities are pretty poor at dealing with it.

[charitynjw]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Hi roar,

Word to the wise - libel/slander are serious offenses - not that I'm suggesting that you have done so, you understand

[Garlok]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Fraud is a really a very contentious issue I'm afraid. I have been a key witness for "the prosecution" of a major fraud and theft of public funds. It was at a time when the Serious Fraud Office had made such a hack of things that all fraud investigations which involved half a million or more became the responsibility of SO6 (Special Operations) at Scotland Yard.

It came to nothing in the end despite the disappearance of the money because the CPS felt "that it was not in the public interest to prosecute" !!!!! This went deep, very deep into the fabric of our so called society and way above my head.
It is also very scary when you know that you and yours have NO PROTECTION whatsoever!!!!

regards
Garlok

[Guest]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Interesting replies and thanks to those who were constructive . Some people seem to have a misplaced confidence in both the police and the justice system. I wouldn't be "interfering" if I shared this confidence and thought that the case was progressing in a satisfactory manner. I'm a civvy who works in law enforcement. Fraud is a complicated crime and to be honest the authorities are pretty poor at dealing with it.

It will never progress satisfactorily for you, because you are incapable of being objective. This much is clear from your opening post. It was your mother who was victimised after all.

Regardless of what you believe, or where you work, the person you refer to is not a criminal - yet.

I have very little faith in either the police or the courts also, but I have even less in self-confessed amateur detectives who are capable of making wild assumptions based on the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence.

Your emotionally charged opening post asked if your mother could force the bank to reveal whether or not one of their employees had accessed details of your mother's bank account and how you might go about this.

Notwithstanding whether nor not they could provide this information, they are not obliged to do so under the DPA, since this detail is incapable of forming any part of your mother's personal data. Even if they could and did, it would mean very little since any suggestion that it may have helped perpetrate a fraud is purely circumstantial. It may be suggestive, even persuasive, but the standard of proof required in a criminal case is such that irrefutable facts are required and nothing less will suffice.

This is as it should be, since if the state is to be allowed to deprive a citizen of his liberty, then any accusation made against him must be subject to the highest standards of scrutiny.

[charitynjw]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

(As seen on chatbox lol)
It certainly has been a day for latin phrases - why?
What have the Romans ever done for us?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

[debtisbad]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Interesting replies and thanks to those who were constructive . Some people seem to have a misplaced confidence in both the police and the justice system. I wouldn't be "interfering" if I shared this confidence and thought that the case was progressing in a satisfactory manner. I'm a civvy who works in law enforcement. Fraud is a complicated crime and to be honest the authorities are pretty poor at dealing with it.

keeping on topic and on track, the question related to the suspect's sister working in the bank. Of course, we could specul.ate that she may have been involved. Personally, I would have though that this is worth discussing with the police inbvestigating the case.

[Bill-K]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Apologies for the late response - had a busy weekend.

Please know that I am PRAISING the very system that you seem to think I am calling into question. I VALUE my freedom to voice my unlearnéd opinion here - and upon this sceptred isle. I do NOT question that freedom.

I understand ROAR's suspicion that that this alleged fraudster's girlfriend may be implicated in defrauding ROAR's mother, but I don't believe that by making his own legitimate enquiries he is interfering. Moreover, I don't believe that we should trust the Police and the Courts to do their job properly and fairly any more than we should trust the banks. If it weren't for our 'interference' the banks would be continuing to rip us off in the way that they have done - and probably on an even greater scale. I have stood in court and seen two police officers lie under oath in order to win a speeding case which I contested.

What I detest is the belief held by many that - as a condition of that freedom - I am not allowed to question THEM.

The system is not faultless, and I value the freedom I have to question it. By "THEM," I mean anybody in authority - from the Police and the Courts - to a traffic warden. From the highest admin down to a minor supervisor.

I've been there in CAG. The 'delicious irony' I'm feeling is one of déja vu. I'm here because I was asked to be here. Why are YOU here ?

My question was not HOW you got here - but WHY are you here ? Why start a self-help advisory forum called 'Legal Beagles,' and then tell those who ask within it for advice to stop interfering with the work of the Police and the Courts ? If that's not a 'Ganderesque' view, then it's somewhat oxymoral at the very least, isn't it ?

[leclerc]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Bill K, if the bank could blame an employee for fraud, not following procedures, leaking customer info to a third party without permission, then they would. I would be very surprised if the angle of the perpetrators girlfriend/sister had not already been looked at. Furthermore, as we know from the Fraud Act, the bank would have contacted the police on the basis of the fraud since they now have the duty to do so. The OP has the right to ask whether they have looked at the angle that they believe might have happened but ultimately the police have to prosecute criminal activity through the courts. I do not believe that the how this site came about and how it started is particularly that interesting since I know, and I was around from almost day 1.
I don't like everything Cetelco says on the forum and I may feel sometimes that my nose has been ripped out of the socket at times but ultimately, I completely agree with his viewpoint with regards to "innocent until proven guilty" and I agree with others who are suggesting that he asks the police in this regards as to whether they have looked at this angle. However, I think perhaps the OP might like to explain how the fraud worked and whether his mother gave the account details to the fraudster themselves. My reading of post 1 is that the person was claiming to be a financial advisor(similar to an IFA due to the amount of money involved), and that they gave the details and possibly the money to the fraudster themselves(can you confirm how the person obtained the money....was it cheque or direct debit or direct transfer?). I believe that the profession of anyone related to them is irrelevant with regards to the actions of the fraudster UNLESS either (1) They gave the fraudster her details(how did she meet with the person?) or (2) she specifically recommended the fraudster through the bank/personal acquaintance. If it was my mother, I would be completely and utterly biased and not neutral on the topic.

[Bill-K]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Bill K, if the bank could blame an employee for fraud, not following procedures, leaking customer info to a third party without permission, then they would. I would be very surprised if the angle of the perpetrators girlfriend/sister had not already been looked at. Furthermore, as we know from the Fraud Act, the bank would have contacted the police on the basis of the fraud since they now have the duty to do so. The OP has the right to ask whether they have looked at the angle that they believe might have happened but ultimately the police have to prosecute criminal activity through the courts. I do not believe that the how this site came about and how it started is particularly that interesting since I know, and I was around from almost day 1.
I don't like everything Cetelco says on the forum and I may feel sometimes that my nose has been ripped out of the socket at times but ultimately, I completely agree with his viewpoint with regards to "innocent until proven guilty" and I agree with others who are suggesting that he asks the police in this regards as to whether they have looked at this angle. However, I think perhaps the OP might like to explain how the fraud worked and whether his mother gave the account details to the fraudster themselves. My reading of post 1 is that the person was claiming to be a financial advisor(similar to an IFA due to the amount of money involved), and that they gave the details and possibly the money to the fraudster themselves(can you confirm how the person obtained the money....was it cheque or direct debit or direct transfer?). I believe that the profession of anyone related to them is irrelevant with regards to the actions of the fraudster UNLESS either (1) They gave the fraudster her details(how did she meet with the person?) or (2) she specifically recommended the fraudster through the bank/personal acquaintance. If it was my mother, I would be completely and utterly biased and not neutral on the topic.

I get that, M. LeClerc. It annoys me, however, when I am told what 'Would have' or 'Should have' been done by various institutions, when in fact what 'Actually has' been done is neither. I have been fobbed off by that sewage so many times, now. You know what I'm talking about, I'm sure.

It annoys me, also, when your opinion and mine, your questions and mine - and those of others here - are viewed as "interference" by such institutions.

When those opinions and questions are similarly viewed by those running this site, I lose faith entirely. It has yet to be restored.

[rippedoffandraging]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Thanks Cetelco. Although perhaps you should go about moderating your pious and confrontational style. To ask for advice and to be told I should "stop interfering" am "incapable of being objective" and have made "wild assumptions" is pretty patronising.
I understand the tenents of "innocence v guilt" etc. That's not the issue. My original question just related to whether or not the bank had a duty to keep account access records and whether they were obliged to hand them over. The police have their man so that box is ticked. They aren't interested in the link between said "fraduster" and bank employee girlfriend. If nothing else, evidence of such a link, would make the eventual post conviction tabloid splash more marketable and help my mothers ruined finances

[leclerc]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Thanks Cetelco. Although perhaps you should go about moderating your pious and confrontational style. To ask for advice and to be told I should "stop interfering" am "incapable of being objective" and have made "wild assumptions" is pretty patronising.
You're not objective. You are the son of the victim in the case. I my mother had been ripped off then I would be incapable of being objective. 250k's worth of my mother's hard earned money being taken and potentially no recovery of such sums would make me completely and utterly a raving lunatic.

I understand the tenents of "innocence v guilt" etc. That's not the issue. My original question just related to whether or not the bank had a duty to keep account access records and whether they were obliged to hand them over.
Yes is the answer and that would be to the police should that line of enquiry be given. For example, Thames Valley Police - News - Former bank employee and cousin jailed – Slough
The police would have used the bank records to determine who opened the accounts and made the transfers.

The police have their man so that box is ticked. They aren't interested in the link between said "fraduster" and bank employee girlfriend.
The former girlfriend which may suggest that she is also a victim of a fraud, of believing someone to be who they really were not.
If nothing else, evidence of such a link, would make the eventual post conviction tabloid splash more marketable and help my mothers ruined finances

The last sentence kind of proves the point of what Cetelco was saying in earlier posts re bias, re police investigation and already discounting that link between fraudster and former girlfriend, etc, etc,
Rippedoffandraging, you may not like Cetelco's posts but when you read them, they give information rather than speculative rumour as to how the system works.
Proving a link to whether the former gf viewed the account is not proof of guilt but how they used that information. For example, I know that breaches of DPA do occur in every single bank branch of every single bank, ie viewing friends accounts, viewing former employees accounts, etc, etc, however, if those breaches lead to fraudulent activity then it would be more serious than a mere breach of DPA. Furthermore, most breaches can be explained away very easily, ie monitoring customer bank accounts, etc, etc,

[TUTTSI]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Just on a point of DPA, some years ago many thousands of peoples personal data was stolen from loans.co.uk. I actually have proof by email and letter from the CEO at that time confirming all this to me.

The police and the ICO did absolutely nothing to bring anyone to justice. This data has consequently turned up in all sorts of places and no one cares a hoot and is being used by CMC's and anyone who has purchased this information.It is a total sham tbvh.

[Guest]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Thanks Cetelco. Although perhaps you should go about moderating your pious and confrontational style. To ask for advice and to be told I should "stop interfering" am "incapable of being objective" and have made "wild assumptions" is pretty patronising.
I understand the tenents of "innocence v guilt" etc. That's not the issue. My original question just related to whether or not the bank had a duty to keep account access records and whether they were obliged to hand them over. The police have their man so that box is ticked. They aren't interested in the link between said "fraduster" and bank employee girlfriend. If nothing else, evidence of such a link, would make the eventual post conviction tabloid splash more marketable and help my mothers ruined finances

I did not moderate anything, I replied to your question but because you did not like what I wrote, you chose to take issue with it.

Let us examine how objective you have been.

The username you have chosen is "rippedoffandraging". The title you chose for the thread is "Employee at bank assisting criminal?" You used the words "ripped off" twice, "conman" and "charlatan" once, yet there has been no conviction.

If you think I have been patronising, why don't you go and speak to the police about what you have found out.

I told you what to expect from the DPA, but because you don't like it, you have replied in a typically subjective manner.

[charitynjw]

Re: Employee at bank assisting criminal ?

Just on a point of DPA, some years ago many thousands of peoples personal data was stolen from loans.co.uk. I actually have proof by email and letter from the CEO at that time confirming all this to me.

The police and the ICO did absolutely nothing to bring anyone to justice. This data has consequently turned up in all sorts of places and no one cares a hoot and is being used by CMC's and anyone who has purchased this information.It is a total sham tbvh.

If loads of us shout loudly enough, maybe they will all listen, Tuttsi (well, one lives in hope lol!)