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Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

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  • Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

    I am struggling to meet monthly payments on a loan with my local bank, the BBVA. I have a solicitor's letter outlining impending court action.

    I borrowed 5000 euros to start a business in 2008. The loan was made available with no questions asked. I may have signed something in the branch later, but I can't remember.

    I am a British ex-pat, and a resident in Spain. I have never been in full-time employment here in Spain, I have no steady income, or assets. I live with my elderly parents, as my father is severely disabled, and I work from home. I do not claim any benefits. The loan sum - up to 10,000 euros was made available through on-line banking, with just a click of a button. In my defence, I would like to pose the following question:

    "What steps did the bank take, to ensure that the customer was in a position to repay the loan?"

    I think this a fair enough question, to which the answer is, "none".

    Subsequent attempts to explain my business venture to the bank, which involves growing trees for a potential nursery business, have been ignored. I invested their money well enough, and have stock worth more than I owe, but obviously it's not the kind of stock you can seize to pay off debts. Neither can I sell up my stock and recoup anywhere near the full retail value.

    I can't think of any bank that would lend money in this way. I had no borrowing history with the bank. I deposited a lump sum of 15,000 euros when I first opened the account in 2007, and drew on it regularly. The loan was offered to me when I had around 2000 euros left. During that time, I never once paid money into my account, so they obviously never vetted me as a customer.

    I have already visited the bank with a letter offering to pay them 10 euros a month, but this has been rejected. On the day of receiving the first letter from the solicitors acting on behalf of the bank, I was instructed to pay whatever I could the same day and phone them back, which I did. I was not given any further instructions, until I received a similar letter recently, stating that court proceedings would start if the outstanding arrears were not settled.

    I simply would not be in this position if the bank had done what every other bank usually does before agreeing to a customer loan. Does this not justify a case of irresponsible lending?

  • #2
    Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

    it does, but it also raises the question of irresponsible borrowing in that wy did you go to the bank to borrow the money if you knew the chances of paying it back were remote

    Im not advocating that is the case but thinking outside of the box because if it does end up in court these are the questions you need to ask yourself and have answers too as a judge will have two sides to look at
    If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of payments.

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    • #3
      Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

      No. I disagree. As I explained the money was invested into growing stock that is currently worth 3x the amount I owe. I have a cash flow crisis, simple as that. It's not unusual for a small business at some point. I do not consider myself "irresponsible" in my actions based on 3 years in business. Neither did I imply that "I knew the chances of paying it back where remote", so don't put words in my mouth, thank you.

      If the bank are going to demand the outstanding arrears without negotiating, then what else can I do? I offered to pay them 10 euros a month to show that I intend to honour the loan, but they refused. I shall probably go to court, and there is absolutely no way I can think of, that I can be made to pay them back, given my situation. So who is acting incompetently?

      I have not used this forum before, but I was hoping to hear some legal advice. Forum junkies please stay away. I am not interested in your armchair ethics.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

        Well, I would think that when the bank lent it you they had every belief that you were intending to actually pay back what you owed? And also, how can you now turn round and say it was irresponsible lending when you were the one that actually asked them to lend it to you in the first place?

        What circumstances have actually caused your cash flow problem? Is it a short term cash flow problem? Was this foreseen in your business plan?

        These are all questions that will be asked should you end up in court.

        And as you haven't used this forum before, then obviously that's why you don't know that we don't have any "forum junkies". We don't usually practice "armchair ethics" and if you didn't actually want to have answers posted then why bother posting.

        If you want legal advice from qualified persons with guarantees then maybe you need to contact a solicitor, bear in mind that Spanish law is different to English law so if you have borrowed from a Spanish bank (you didn't make that clear) the legalities will be different.
        Is no longer here

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        • #5
          Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

          Hello Bobadilla

          Firstly may I point out that I doubt that anyone on here has experience in Spanish Law or even their banking rules and regulations, so whoever posts on here is trying to help you and not have a go at you in any way.
          Pompey has made a valid point and was not being rude he was merely making a statement, so please don't accuse him of being a 'forum junkie' with 'armchair ethics'. He is a valued member and helps lots of people.
          With regards to the paying back of the loan, over here in England it is possible to submit an income and expenditure form and negotiate a repayment plan, have you tried doing this with your bank ? or did you just say '10 euros a month is all I can afford'?
          I'm sorry but legally I have no idea how you stand,one of my more knowledgeable friends will hopefully pop along later and give you a hand.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

            i did say i was not advocating the first paragraph and that still stands i was meerly raising a question that anyone in the legal profession would ask and it is an important that you would need an answer too

            The advice above by wendy and sapphire is good as you are dealing with spanish law i would be seeking advice from a spanish law solicitor
            If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of payments.

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            • #7
              Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

              Originally posted by WendyB View Post
              How can you now turn round and say it was irresponsible lending when you were the one that actually asked them to lend it to you in the first place?
              Where do you get the idea that I approached the bank for a loan? They sent me a series of letters and promotional material offering the money. I had no previous interest in using the bank to raise finance. You really out to refrain from jumping to conclusions. I'm sorry, but you seem to be rather put out by my comments to another poster! Very odd!

              So I get the impression that this forum covers English law only. I had hoped there may be a European standard for banking practices, but if it is down to each country, then I shall take my chances with the authorities here.

              I in no way implied that pompeyfaith was a forum junkie exercising armchair ethics, either. It was a general statement, but again, it's no surprise that the first people to respond should rally around each other and jump to conclusions.

              Originally posted by WendyB View Post
              ..so if you have borrowed from a Spanish bank (you didn't make that clear)
              If you took the time to read my dear, it is very clear!

              Quote: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!
              Quote: I am struggling to meet monthly payments on a loan with my local bank, the BBVA.
              Quote: I am a British ex-pat, and a resident in Spain.

              Again, I am interested in hearing from people who might offer some insight into how a bank intends to extract money from someone with no assets and no regular income! One last time, before I call it a day.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

                I am going to refrain from answering that last post right now till I've had time to rephrase my first thoughts.
                Is no longer here

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                • #9
                  Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

                  was this borrowed as a business loan or a personal loan?
                  ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                  is the loan regulated under spanish law like a british loan under £25,000 would be?
                  Last edited by pompeyfaith; 8th September 2010, 17:32:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
                  If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of payments.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

                    Originally posted by pompeyfaith View Post
                    was this borrowed as a business loan or a personal loan?
                    ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                    is the loan regulated under spanish law like a british loan under £25,000 would be?
                    Hello pompeyfaith,

                    It was a personal loan. The money was made available through their on-line banking facility. I only had to select the amount I wanted to borrow (up to 10,000 Euros) and click a button to transfer the money immediately. The loan was offered to me, in the easiest way possible. This kind of privilege is perhaps expected for people on high income with excellent credit rating and/or history of borrowing with a bank.

                    I'll maintain that to offer the same to someone with no lending history, no income, no assets, who never paid money into his account prior to borrowing the money (whence I began trading) to be irresponsible. I did my homework, but the bank has since told me I'm not eligible for a business loan now that they know I have no assets.

                    I borrowed 5000 euros, and owe around 3,500. I have no paperwork assigned to this borrowing either, as no application form was required. I have no knowledge regarding loan regulations, unfortunately.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

                      Well that seems to tie in with this:

                      http://www.out-law.com/page-8815

                      There must be regulation under European law there must also be data protection law too.

                      You need to get copies of any agreement they must hold them they should also have sent you copies even if applied for on-line.

                      Ill have a dig around and see what i can find.

                      PF
                      ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                      Have found this:

                      http://europa.eu/legislation_summari.../l32021_en.htm
                      Last edited by pompeyfaith; 8th September 2010, 18:17:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
                      If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of payments.

                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

                        Originally posted by bobadilla View Post
                        I offered to pay them 10 euros a month to show that I intend to honour the loan, but they refused.
                        Does that surprise you? It would take 83 years to pay just the loan amount back. Interest would mean you could never pay it back at that rate. It's simply not a credible offer.

                        You ask ''where do you get the idea that I approached the bank for a loan?'' but you have already answered that in your initial post: ''with just a click of a button''.

                        There may well be an element of mis-selling but the default position is that you applied for a loan that you haven't paid back and you would be well advised to think beyond only your own circumstances and look at the issue from the lender's perspective too, as indeed a judge would.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

                          Originally posted by pompeyfaith View Post
                          Well that seems to tie in with this:

                          http://www.out-law.com/page-8815

                          There must be regulation under European law there must also be data protection law too.

                          You need to get copies of any agreement they must hold them they should also have sent you copies even if applied for on-line.

                          Ill have a dig around and see what i can find.

                          PF
                          ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                          Have found this:

                          http://europa.eu/legislation_summari.../l32021_en.htm
                          Thanks for the links!


                          Originally posted by EXC View Post
                          Does that surprise you? It would take 83 years to pay just the loan amount back. Interest would mean you could never pay it back at that rate. It's simply not a credible offer.

                          You ask ''where do you get the idea that I approached the bank for a loan?'' but you have already answered that in your initial post: ''with just a click of a button''.

                          There may well be an element of mis-selling but the default position is that you applied for a loan that you haven't paid back and you would be well advised to think beyond only your own circumstances and look at the issue from the lender's perspective too, as indeed a judge would.
                          Oh dear, more bashing?

                          FYI, the point of offering 10 Euros, is so that when I go to court, I can show in writing that I offered to pay SOMETHING, and that the bank REFUSED. It shows that I am willing to maintain relations with the bank. In that respect it a very good offer. I have stock which I can sell next year and pay off lump sums of the loan, if needs be. Or I could just leave the country. Which would you prefer?

                          As for your dig regarding who approached who, it's petty. Next.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Help! Advice on banking ethics in Spain!

                            I see.

                            How does your offer to pay tie in with your claim for mis-selling?

                            I'd genuinely be interested to know.

                            Comment

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