Nat West, Loan recall

[scoobydoo]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

When is your appointment by the way?

will your daughter have a chance to prepare a plan of how she may improve her income expenditure as well as sorting out the increase in the payments?

It may be worth covering all angles if you can in one meeting.

I would also politely point out that it was not at all helpful of them to try and avoid a meeting.

Try and go in well organised with a file with letters /documents etc so you can refer to them easily and one of you make notes.

Try and look like you mean business but keep the meeting as pleasant as possible ( I know that is hard ) as the person who is interviewing you is probably not the person responsible for the way you have been treated so far and it would be nice to have someone on your side.

[razor]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Hi All
As promised,I can update you on my meeting with NatWest ref, my daughters business account,and repossession order.
I had a prepared list on my concerns, from which I started at the very begining, with the loan agreement.

My two main concerns were

1) The loan was for £88,500.00. repayments to be 180 @ £793.00 that's a grand total of £142,740.00, (over15 years) a box on the same agreement form gives two options, Repayments to include interest YESorNO. this option was not checked (neither had been crossed off)
NatWest have debited her account every 3 months, with the interest on the balance of the loan, (7%) which means (in round figures) she paid 3 months at £793. (£2379) and then got debited £1400.00
I asked NatWest why this option had not been crossed, as this would make a very large difference to the loan. Their reply was "We don't know" and would have to look into it.

2) In the letter from NatWest saying that her monthly repayments were to be increased by £350.00 (my thread dated 17th Oct) NatWest agreed that this was wrong, not only that the increase was due to a rise in the base rate, but they had the wrong year. 38 months shorter.

NatWest admitted that they had made mistakes, and I feel that they are serious ones. They shouldn't send out demands which are wrong, which then result in going to court,and having ones house/business repossessed.

The problem we now have, is that the business manager who we had the meeting with, was the one who sent the letter with the wrong year etc. He said that he couldn't change the position regarding the repossession order,and that he would have to go to NatWests recovery dept, in Telford, Is he going to admit to his boss, that he dropped a clanger??
I can't do much until NatWest come back to me, although I would like to know wheather my daughter could have a case for compensation,(she has incured emotional stress, £600 solicitors bills) or maybe how she could re-negotiate a new agreement, preferably without her ex husbands name on it, surely, If NatWest broke their side of the agreement, we could argue for a new contract?
What about the Ombudsmen ???


If some could give me instructions "how to" scan the agreement,and add it to my post, for anyone to see who may able to advise, (hiding personal details) I will have a go.

Thanking you in antisipation , razor

[WendyB]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Hi All

I asked NatWest why this option had not been crossed, as this would make a very large difference to the loan. Their reply was "We don't know" and would have to look into it.

2) In the letter from NatWest saying that her monthly repayments were to be increased by £350.00 (my thread dated 17th Oct) NatWest agreed that this was wrong, not only that the increase was due to a rise in the base rate, but they had the wrong year. 38 months shorter.

NatWest admitted that they had made mistakes, and I feel that they are serious ones. They shouldn't send out demands which are wrong, which then result in going to court,and having ones house/business repossessed.

The problem we now have, is that the business manager who we had the meeting with, was the one who sent the letter with the wrong year etc. He said that he couldn't change the position regarding the repossession order,and that he would have to go to NatWests recovery dept, in Telford, Is he going to admit to his boss, that he dropped a clanger??
I can't do much until NatWest come back to me, although I would like to know wheather my daughter could have a case for compensation,(she has incured emotional stress, £600 solicitors bills) or maybe how she could re-negotiate a new agreement, preferably without her ex husbands name on it, surely, If NatWest broke their side of the agreement, we could argue for a new contract?
What about the Ombudsmen ???

I would think, in the first instance, a strongly worded complaint to the complaints dept, copied to the recovery department. He may not admit that he dropped a clanger, but that doesn't mean you can't tell them! To say that he can't change the position is probably true - but that doesn't mean that no-one can.

Also, as the reposseion has aleady been delayed, you may be able to get a redetermination of it, now you know the full facts etc. Not exactly sure on this, but surely the fact that they cocked up in the first place hence leading to the default, repossession hearing etc, would count for something with the judge hearing the case?
No doubt someone will be along soon who knows more about this side of things than i do.

Well done so far - your daughter is lucky to have a dad like you on her side

[Tools]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Hi Razor,

Seems to me you took control of the situation and didn't allow them to fob you off.

As for a complaint, have a read on Natwest's webpage here NatWest Contact us it highlights their complaints procedure and contact details.

I would also submit a complaint to the FOS and FSA as the loan will be regulated by them. Make sure they know you are planning on doing this as it will give them the kick they need.

It may be possible to renegotiate the loan to remove her ex's name but they are not obliged to do so.

Keep us informed of your progress, an interesting case.

[razor]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Hi All, I've been busy scanning, so I will see if I can attach the two main documents. I have digitally removed only personal data from the documents.

1) Original loan agreement, this will show details of the loan re-payments,dates, etc. and the line referring to the "Interest YES or NO", not being crossed, if anyone has any comments on this document, and whether we have a case AGIANST NatWest for whatever, i.e. broken contract, compensation, new loan. , I would like to hear their comments.

2) The letter from NatWest, (self explanatory) except when read conjunction loan agreement, the repaid date is 3yrs wrong, (should be July 2017) hence the repayments should NOT have been increased.(by 40%)

If the total balance of the loan (£75,000+) is not repaid if full, by 31st Dec 2008, NatWest will re-posses the property, Shop and all. Totally wrong

My daughter has suffered extreme depression, financial expense, and its had an adverse effect with staff moralei n her shop. they could end up without a job.

Whether I done right or wrong, I recorded the meeting we had with NatWest, and I didn't tell them I was recording it either.

Thanks WendyB, are you suggesting going back to court?, these findings I have submitted since joining "Legal Beagles", were not recognised or brought to anyones attention,when my daughter last went to court.
NatWest gained a repossession order, even her solicitor never picked up these discrepancies.

Subject to the attachments being a success, I would appreciate any response, especially from anyone who could help me get a successful result against NatWest,
If more information is required,please ask

Thanks to all. razor.

[Tools]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Thanks razor, that helps quite a bit, just a few points if I may:-

• The Natwest letter is dated October 2007 and that the new increased payment would be applied if not disputed within 14 days. When did the payments actually increase and have you yourself only just become aware of this recently.
• Can you/she prove the increased payments have directly affected her money situation(yes obvious I know) and that as such she has incurred further losses be it financial or had an effect on her credit rating etc.
• You mention the Interest YES/NO box, sorry but I cannot see where you mean.
• It mentions on the agreement that there are details overleaf, is it possible you could scan that in for us too. Ideally we need to see a copy of the Terms&Conditions of the loan agreement in conjunction with the actual agreement itself.

Also, to answer some of my earlier points, has she approached the tattoo shop with a view to increasing their rent, has she considered reducing her staff.

[scoobydoo]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

"Yes, she has attended a court hearing I think about 6 weeks ago, when Nat West agreed to delay the repossession until Dec31st. I will find out from her the exact wording"



If you can prove that she cold have managed the payments if it was not for the increase which was their error - I would be trying to get the suspended re-possession order lifted and I am sure there will be help here on how to do this. Well done so far. If I was you I would be fuming and I think your daughter must be as well. I would definitely be thinking about reclaiming costs etc.But I agree you have to prove thier error was the root of the problem."

[WendyB]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Have you got a copy of the judgement from the court? We would need to know what the wording was, terms imposed etc. Or did they just agree to an adjournment or delay? If we can get the exact wording/judgment/whatever the judge had said etc that will help to see if it can be appealed against etc.
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

NatWest gained a repossession order, even her solicitor never picked up these discrepancies.

Can't get the staff these days, can you???

Seriously though, I find it unbelievable that no-one, especially her solicitor, noticed the not exactly minor discrepancy in the amount of payments etc. It jumped off the page at me! It may well be worth a complaint to the solicitor as well, he obviously wasn't very good at his job, IMO... Did she pay for the solicitor? Not that it makes a difference, crap advice is always crap, just more galling if its been paid for. Definitley worth a moan at the solicitor's.

[razor]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Hi everyone.
Your replies are very encouraging, I have been busy scanning more letters, unfortunately I am still working (nights) and although I have access to my PC during the night, I am not connected to the Internet, so I am busy compiling my replies post haste.
I am confident that I do have a very strong case against NatWest, for putting my daughter into the situation she now finds herself in, with the threat of repossession looming. (Dec 08) I know she made matters worse herself by not responding to letters,and defaulting on repayments, but her situation was instigated by NatWest.
I have a meeting with my daughters ex-husband, whose name is on the policy (loan) at 4.30 today, I'm hoping he will shed more light on what's been going on,and how the original loan drawn up with NatWest, especially as the authorities could be knocking on his door soon. Luckily, the relationship between him and my family is very good,which does make things easier. (I hope)
I will now get stuck in to more detailed replies, I have scanned and edited more letters, which will save me having to write extracts.
My objective, is to show that NatWest have behaved inappropriately, and are fully responsible for the situation my daughter is now in, what can be done against NatWest will have to be decided upon, depending on my evidence. especially the small print, I am not a financial whiz-kid, which I suppose could be seen as an advantage,as I have to ask questions, and they in turn can draw their own conclusions. I'm hoping this will be the case with NatWest, and they will have to admit that they were in the wrong,(I already have that recorded digitally,) but it would be nice to get it in writing. With help and advise from Legal Beagles, this could be a possibility.
I will go now, and prepare my responses, hopefully by tomorrow, (these could be in the form of attachments, letters etc)
Please let me know if their is any problem reading the attachments.

Thanks again razor

[razor]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Hi all
I’m hoping I have edited these attached files correctly, which should help me explain what I am trying to achieve.
I am trying to clarify in my own mind also so that I can explain to my daughter, (not being a financial boffin myself) as to the correctness of this policy. If there is anything, which is not absolutely water tight, and then I would argue with NatWest, that the agreement should be re-negotiated, I trust anyone reading this thread; will refer to my previous threads, so that the picture will become clearer.
I have re-edited the loan agreement, and circled sections, which I refer to as follows.
ZIPPED Attachment 1) Loan Contract 1st July 2002
A, The loan amount, £88,500.00 taken out 1st July 2002 (F)
B, Re-payments 179 @ £793.17 and 1 @ £793.48, monthly, (15 years) a grand total of £142,770.91.
Question, How are these repayments calculated, bearing in mind that this final figure is £54,270.91 in excess of the original loan. (£142,770.91 - £88,500) and conjunction with the next item

D I am concerned with this section, depending whether which is deleted, YES or NO, surely this has a direct influence on the repayments. And her account balance. It clearly asks that either YES or NO is deleted. Item (E) , this has not been done.
Question, What would be the effect regarding monthly repayments, if YES was deleted.
And again if NO was deleted
Question, As neither have been deleted, could I confidently say to NatWest, that this agreement is, not valid? Has in defaulted? breach of contract? Anything which commutes this agreement to the waste bin .Anything could have been said verbaly,while writing the document in 2002, but if it was not put in writing, i.e on that document, then I have a case?
I have my daughter’s repayment statements, which start with a debit of £88,500.00 her repayments, are as per the agreement, i.e. £793.17 each month. Then every 3 months, the interest (7%) is added back into her account. Which means that her account is debited by £2,400.00 then £1400.00 added in interest. Each quarter.
I am not suggesting that her account has been incorrectly managed, but what I am concerned about, is what difference would have been depending on paragraph D and how the different options would have affected the re-payments.



ZIPPED Attachments 1) Terms & Conditions pages 1&2
I have placed two further attachments, which are the “Terms and Conditions” which will need to be read in conjunction with the interest rates etc.
That concludes the queries I have with the agreement document, I would like to know if I could challenge NatWest over any of the above points?
ZIPPED Attachment 2) Increased repayments 24th Oct
On my previous thread, I attached a letter in which false statements are made by NatWest, who have verbally admitted at the meeting with the Business manager 21st Oct 2008, which the contents were incorrect. It was this letter, which initiated my daughter to default on her repayments.
My thanks to WendyB for spotting this, (Thread dated 14th Oct refers)
This letter explains now, why my daughter’s re-payments were increased by 40%. The original contract was for 15yrs, NatWest had re-calculated the revised repayments over 12 years.
In my meeting with the NatWest business manager (it was he who wrote the letter) admitted it was incorrect, in two ways,
a) The base rate had not increased not by 40%
b) The originally agreed term date was July 2017 not May2014 (F on the original contract)
Surely, I have a very good case against NatWest, to say that this agreement is in “Breach of contract”
After my daughter received this letter, she just cracked up, no way could she meet these payments, I know she was in the wrong by not paying anything, and not contacting NatWest within the 14 days, but when she did write to them. See ZIPPED Attachment 3) NatWest 25th Feb 2008
This was their reply
ZIPPED Attachment 4) NatWest 3rd April 2008 note the line “A meeting is not appropriate”
The next letter from NatWest
ZIPPED Attachment 5) NatWest 27th July 2008
I trust that we can appreciate; my daughter should not be receiving any of these letters they have all been generated due to the incorrect demand 24th Oct 2007


Now come the letters from NatWest solicitors. ZIPPED Attachment 7) Green & Co 27th June 2008
My daughter had a meeting at her property with the NatWest Recovery Dept. (Credit Management Services) 2nd July 2008. The following letter refers. ZIPPED Attachment) 8) NatWest 9th July 2008
In this letter, the bank agreed to my daughter making repayments of £1000.00 per month, this she has done. But also it states, “The bank is to be repaid by 31st Dec in full”
NatWest are fully aware, that my daughter is not in a position, to pay the outstanding loan in full, but it’s due to their incompetence, she has been put in this position.
If the points I have raised are found to be justified, and that NatWest could be found to be in “Breach of Contract”, either in the loan agreement document, or because of the letter demanding the increased payments, then surely we have a case against NatWest.
I am open to suggestions as to what we could achieve, but my initial thinking would be
1) The existing loan agreement be deemed invalid
2) A new loan agreement be made, this would allow my daughter’s ex husband’s name to be omitted.
3) The new loan agreement be calculated, so that the repayments were similar to those she was making at the time when the letter was received demanding increased payments, (Oct 2007)
4) Financial compensation for my daughters expenses incurred defending her case, (Solicitors fees, and mine) costs to be calculated, but estimates would be around £2000.00 (to be deducted from her loan)
5) Both hers and her ex husband’s credit status are restored. (I don’t know much about credit ratings, but I’m sure both parties must have poor credit ratings, as a direct result of this situation?)
And any other form of compensation anyone could suggest.
All this would depend on whether my daughter has a good case against NatWest.
Update since I started this thread.
My daughter had a phone call from NatWest , to say the recovery dept ( Credit Management Services, Telford) were not prepared to change their policy, following the meeting we had with the NatWest business manager.(21st Oct 2008)
However, I was not surprised at this, because it was the same business manager at NatWest, who had written the letter demanding increased payments, had not fully explained HIS mistake to Credit Management Services
So I rang Credit Management Services, and explained what really had been discussed.(I also have this conversation recorded) We now have a Face to Face meeting with “Credit Management Services” on 21st Nov 2008.
I raised my concern with Credit Management Services, as to whom we can write to, and lodge our complaint, he said Helen Britton, at customer services Telford? (Any comments on this would be appreciated) However, if we do have good case, I would prefer to go to someone who would ensure a fair decision, on the lines of my compensation claims. Would this be the Ombudsman? If so, where does he/she be contacted?

Just a little refresher on the background, my daughter took out this loan with her then husband, in 2002; they divorced in 2004, but remain very good friends. The loan was to purchase an existing gents hair salon, with accommodation above, (present value estimated £200,000.00) she still lives in two rooms above the shop. Business is fair, but we need more bums on the chairs, she spent a lot of the money, (while paying off her repayments, June 2007- May2008) on re-furbishing the shop, which is now very attractive, 3 men’s chairs, 2 ladies) although it is definitely a going concern, I will have to deal with her cash flow. Usual problem’s, pound notes in the till, special offers in the shops, it’s too easy to resist the temptation to spend, spend, spend.
I did not know how deep her financial problems were until my wife asked if we could re-mortgage our house. Then I found out about the letters from NatWest demanding repayment of the loan in full, by Dec 2008. The thought of my daughter losing her shop, and home, would be a disaster. Thoughts of her moving back home were a close reality. (We thought our problems were over when she was married, and left home. How wrong we were, they had just begun)
My initial thread was how I could get a mortgage for her and pay of her loan, but obviously, the situation has changed, thanks to Legal Beagles, I now feel we have the advantage over NatWest. And with help and advice, I am confident that I can restore my daughter’s financial situation, back to normal
If a case against NatWest can be deemed positive, then I would “Throw the book” at them, they have had no consideration from NatWest, as to the hardship/distress this has caused, not only to our daughter, but to her dependants as well.
I acknowledge threads which have posted questions and advise relating to other items I have raised, i.e. rent, accounts, expenditures etc, but if I can nail this particular problem with NatWest, and the loan re-call first, I will surely be back to discuss ways to increase sales, and bums on chairs.
Anyone who reads this thread in full, must be in line for a FREE haircut (even if I have to do it, but I’m not a barber)
My next edition will come in a hardback.
Thanks in anticipation razor.

Sorry, looking at my last post, something has gone wrong with the text, I have written the letter in Word, then copied,and pasted into this box. Maybe I have the wrong Word file, I note that the last porting is OK, I'll try again

Thanks, razor. (I'm an engineer,not a IT guru)

[Edit by Tools] Have fixed the formatting and deleted error posts razor.

[Tools]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Thanks Razor, have fixed the formatting and deleted the spurious posts.

I now see wHere you have highlighted the YES/NO interest option, and will read term 6 on the T&C`s

You will need to do another post for the other attachments as you are only allowed to upload 5 per post.

ZIPPED Attachment 4) NatWest 3rd April 2008 note the line “A meeting is not appropriate”
ZIPPED Attachment 5) NatWest 27th July 2008
ZIPPED Attachment 7) Green & Co 27th June 2008 (Was there an Attachment 6 by the way???)
ZIPPED Attachment) 8) NatWest 9th July 2008

I will await you uploading the remainder of the zip files so we have a full picture before posting any thoughts. If you have problems(or not enough time) with the attachments or the post let me know or email them to me Tools@LegalBeagles.info and I will upload them for you

[Tools]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

OK Just typing out term 6 of the T&C`s for reference could you add the missing word highlighted below as ????????. And also read through to make sure I have the wording correct as the copy was a little poor in parts.

Interest will accrue at the daily equivalent of the rate described overleaf, on the basis of a year of 365 days (during a leap year interest will be calculated on the same basis but charged for 366 days) and the actual number of days elapsed on the balance of the loan outstanding on each day. The expression balance of the loan includes the principal amount paid to you and not repaid by you only interest debited but not paid and any other amounts outstanding under this agreement. We will debit interest either to your current account or your loan account on our quarterly charging days. The amount of interest will be determined by the interest rate described overleaf and the balance of the loan each day. If applicable, remember that NatWest Base Rate may change at any time changes in NatWest Base Rate and other published rates take effect when made. Details of current rates are available from any office and changes are published in selected[ national newspapers. You must also pay interest at the rate described overleaf on each due sum from its due date to the date upon which we receive payment (as well after as before judgement)

[razor]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Hi Tools

Thank you for your prompt response.

I will now add those missing attachments, which I hope will fill in the missing links.
My initial priority at the moment, is to see if we have a case against NatWest, to claim the the Loan agreement is not a valid document, as the monthly repayments could have been affected by which word YESorNO was crossed.
I don't dispute that the repayments were correct £793.17/month. but would they be different depending on YES.No. if YES, then that document should be deemed invalid.????

I will now do the attachments
Thanks for everything razor

[Tools]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

OK Razor, from the way I understand it;

The way the agreement is being operated is as if the YES/NO section were ticked as NO.

This means that the £1400 interest is added to the loan balance each quarter. If it had been ticked as YES then (assuming the interest figure would work out the same) that £1400 would have been split into 3 i.e £466( for round figures) would have been added to each monthly payment made on the loan taking each monthly repayment to £793+£466= £1259. I suspect due to the way the interest would have been worked out this figure mat have been a little lower but not much but the total amount repayable over the term would have been lower. It was probably discussed with your daughter & ex at the time of the loan application and they decided to go for the lower monthly payments and longer term.

Is the agreement invalid, I honestly wouldn`t like to say. But maybe you could use this as a bargaining tool to help you. From the last letter in July 2008 I see that Natwest agreed to increased monthly repayments of £1000 to cover any arrears, the outstanding arrears being repayable by December 2008. What is the current outstanding arrears figure?

I know she wishes the ex to be removed from the agreement but as things stand he is jointly liable for any monies should it be collected on (limiting her exposure)

[razor]

Re: Nat West, Loan recall

Thank you for that explanation Tools. Just one more query. Why, or how, are her repayments £791 in the first place.
I'm probably barking up the wrong tree, but the loan is £88500 over 180 months, that's 88500 -:- 180, = £491 per mnth. add on interest, (88500 -:- 100x7, -:-12 (months) that,s £516/mnth total 491+516 = £1007 per month. decreasing as the monthly balance come down. I'm probably living in wonderland you will say.

Her balance July 2008 was £75,388.00. she is now paying the £1000.00 as agreed with the Credit Management Service, but there is no way she can pay the whole outstanding balance by Dec 2008.

Thank you once again for your help. Tools

One quickie, whilst I have been writing these threads, more than once I have lost what I was writing, I cannot see where I can "save" whilst writing, I thought I had seen somewhere, where I could retrieve up to where I had got to, if lost.

Many thanks razor