Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured loan

[meellis]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

Just to put a small twopenneth worth in, the rules on insolvency (not sure which ones) have changed allowing the receiver to chase mis-sold ppi payments and the like in England too. They argue that they were from accounts held prior bankruptcy so subject to their scrutiny. I would certainly question the fact that you cannot guarantee payment and also question whether the ex is entitled to any of the bonus if they haven't been actually paying all the time. Also , as far as I am aware anybody is Bankrupt until the insolvency service says differently. For first time bankrupts this is generally a year but if the receiver questions things it could be longer.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

The point from the beginning has not changed. Can the possibility of a bonus be taken into account as part of the bankrupts estate today when the bonus may or may not be paid in 16 months time?

You do not need a solicitor, anything slightly complicated and Debt Camel utters solicitor. I argued myself with the receiver, trustee, bank, insurers, al their lawyers, my uncle's not particularly brilliant lawyer, with everyone in fact. I did not use a solicitor - they never took my uncle's endowment. Only pay for a lawyer if you have to, ie they will not listen to your reasoning. If the asset is prior to the bankruptcy it's not after-acquired property, if it is during but before discharge of bankruptcy, it is after acquired assets. I'll try and look for the section if its not after-acquired at section 310. It may be section 296.. I can't remember it was a few years ago when I argued. Look at the letter from the receiver, the section will be on there anyway.

[Jesus Quintana]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

Interesting point. I have paid the entire loan since 2013 from when the ex said she was unable to pay due to financial difficulty. It was in 2013 when I agreed with the ex that I would continue to pay the entire loan for the duration however because I was taking circa £16k of her debt she would would not be entitled to any of the 'bonus' (in its entirety is £7.5k). I have all this documented in emails. The OR said in the last letter this does not matter because it's an informal agreement which I think its unfair. I've supplied all bank statements from last month back to 2013 so the OR already has evidence.

I've revised the letter to be simple and straight to the point but have not mentioned the above yet.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

Interesting point. I have paid the entire loan since 2013 from when the ex said she was unable to pay due to financial difficulty. It was in 2013 when I agreed with the ex that I would continue to pay the entire loan for the duration however because I was taking circa £16k of her debt she would would not be entitled to any of the 'bonus' (in its entirety is £7.5k). I have all this documented in emails. The OR said in the last letter this does not matter because it's an informal agreement which I think its unfair. I've supplied all bank statements from last month back to 2013 so the OR already has evidence.

I've revised the letter to be simple and straight to the point but have not mentioned the above yet.

Actually, if you've paid more towards the loan whether it's in joint names or not, it should matter. It's really a grey area over that 'bonus' so argue your case....the receiver/ clerk is just a human machine....their default is 'estate.. claim......exterminateeee. Ok, not exterminate they're not Daleks ..well ok maybe a tad.

[Jesus Quintana]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

hahaha

Ok the letter is straight to the point. I'll update once they get back to me. Thanks for all the help.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

hahaha

Ok the letter is straight to the point. I'll update once they get back to me. Thanks for all the help.

ok, here's the section, it's section 283:

"section 283
Definition of bankrupt’s estate.

(1) Subject as follows, a bankrupt’s estate for the purposes of any of this Group of Parts comprises—

(a) all property belonging to or vested in the bankrupt at the commencement of the bankruptcy, and

(b) any property which by virtue of any of the following provisions of this Part is comprised in that estate or is treated as falling with the preceding paragraph."

[meellis]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

One thing I found while dealing with the receiver was you need to stand up and state a realistic case. When you get around to receiving any bonus your ex would have missed 40% of the contributions so at best she would be entitled to half of 60%. Saying that the joint agreement you both signed and are both liable for she has defaulted on which could have caused not only the bonus to be lost but also that which it was secured on so you had no choice but to step into the breach which has caused you great inconvenience.

[Debt Camel]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

re what percentage of the bonus should go to the bankrupt, there is a precedent here in the treatment the OR applies to joint life assurance policies which result in some form of terminal payment. See https://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov...fePolicies.htm which says "If the bankrupt does not contribute to premium payments following the bankruptcy order, the joint policy holder who continues to make all the premium payments may be able to claim more than half of the policy proceeds."

So you will be entitled to receive slightly more than half the bonus as your ex will not be contributing after bankruptcy. That is why I asked you earlier what % the OR had suggested you might settle for.

The fact that you had an agreement with your ex that you would get the bonus is unlikely to be relevant. Even if you had formally documented this, your ex should not have "given" you their rights to the bonus unless you paid them a reasonable value for it. Giving away assets before you go bankrupt is problematic as the Official Receiver can require that the assets given away are returned.

Where the correspondence with your ex regarding the secured loan bonus may be relevant is if you have difficulty in getting the OR to agree that you have a greater than 50% beneficial interest in the property. I asked you before what was going to happen to the property but you didn't reply. Is this resolved to your satisfaction? If it isn't, this is probably the most important area you should be focussing on.

[Debt Camel]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

Just to put a small twopenneth worth in, the rules on insolvency (not sure which ones) have changed allowing the receiver to chase mis-sold ppi payments and the like in England too. They argue that they were from accounts held prior bankruptcy so subject to their scrutiny. I would certainly question the fact that you cannot guarantee payment and also question whether the ex is entitled to any of the bonus if they haven't been actually paying all the time. Also , as far as I am aware anybody is Bankrupt until the insolvency service says differently. For first time bankrupts this is generally a year but if the receiver questions things it could be longer.

PPI doesn't seem relevant here. Extensive guidance has been added to the Technical Manual as this now crops up in so many cases but the rules on PPI were never changed, "Rights of action" always transferred to the OR on bankruptcy and PPI was one of them.

Discharge from bankruptcy is automatic after 12 months unless the OR goes to court to ask for discharge to be postponed because of non-cooperation by the bankrupt. This is very rare and highly unlikely to be relevant to this case. For second time bankrupts discharge is still automatic at 12 months, but a BRO/BRU may be imposed.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Expartner going bankrupt - adjudicator wants part of a future bonus from secured

Interesting point. I have paid the entire loan since 2013 from when the ex said she was unable to pay due to financial difficulty. It was in 2013 when I agreed with the ex that I would continue to pay the entire loan for the duration however because I was taking circa £16k of her debt she would would not be entitled to any of the 'bonus' (in its entirety is £7.5k). I have all this documented in emails. The OR said in the last letter this does not matter because it's an informal agreement which I think its unfair. I've supplied all bank statements from last month back to 2013 so the OR already has evidence.

I've revised the letter to be simple and straight to the point but have not mentioned the above yet.

Agreement = contract....contract is normally legally binding. As long as you can prove there was legal intention...it should be a valid agreement, ie offer and acceptance; consideration & legal intention. There is a case that families don't intend a legal intention, which is why you need to prove it by documents. If you can prove there is a contract then the £7.5k should normally pass to you, in 2013. However, I think a bankruptcy bypasses all debts at the point it is made, so in this case the £7.5k, as I understand it should not bypass your rights. Argue you have a legally valid contract to the receiver.