new development - could do with some advise !

[Hemmings1965]

Hi all ,

The background to my case is that I ran a pub on a self employed basis from may 2002 to oct 2003 ( so 12/13 years ago ) and I received a letter in september 2014 from Birmingham City Council demanding £8000 in unpaid business rates ( or non domestic rates as they were then called covering the period aug2002 to june 2004 )

I disputed this via letter to council : essential points below

• I left the pub in oct 2003 and have no paperwork to prove this given the 12 year time lapse
• I closed my pub bank account in nov 2003 and have no records given the 12 year time lapse and my tax records and receipt only go back six years
• I was managing a pub in neighbouring Walsall council from oct 2003 to june 2004 with accommodation included. Pub has since been demolished . No paperwork given 12 year time lapse
• I was a resident of Birmingham and paid domestic council tax from July 2004 to present day and no-one has ever attempted to contact me regarding the alleged debt so I could dispute it in the 12 years since it was supposed to be in force
• I have checked my credit record regularly via Equifax since 2005 and have no note of this on my file whatsoever
• I requested the alleged debt was struck from the record

I heard nothing and assumed it was sorted ( fool I am !!)

I then got a hand delivered letter from Ross and Roberts Bailiffs on 19^th March saying they had called to execute a Liability order

I resent the original letter ( recorded this time ) to Birmingham Council along with a cover letter and received a reply today : essential points below

• They accept the dates I was liable for are wrong and should have ended on 8^th October 2003 and have amended the debt from £8000 to £4260
• The liability order was correctly obtained
• They state no payments were received during my tenancy
• They state I must deal only with Ross and Roberts enforcement agents and not them

I don’t know what to do now. How can they accept the dates of the alleged debt are wrong and reduce it by half but state the original liability orders still stand

I really don’t want to deal with the bailiffs over a debt I dispute but can’t prove given the time lapse

I am a self employed single parent earning less than 15k including working tax credits . I rent and don’t own a house or have any assets and I even lease my car rather than own it.

Do I have any options? Feeling very stressed !!!

Thanks in advance

[des8]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

I'm sure more knowledgeable Beagles will be along soon, but doing a quick check indicates that Business rates are statute barred after 6 years.
Somebody will be along to advise how to challenge this liability order.

[Hemmings1965]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

I think council tax is statue barred but nndr / business rates not , would love to be wrong . ! Even if it's correct it's the twelve year silence and the sudden halfing of the bill that's making me wonder about the validity of the liability order . So anxious !!!!!

[des8]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

This is copied from Breckland Council paper discussing business rates:
"Statute Barred. Certain debts will fall outside of legal jurisdiction either because the debtor may haveleft the country or 6 years may have elapsed since the debt was incurred andrecovery action has not already been taken.Cases of this type are rare but where they do occur legal action cannot be taken torecover the debt so they will be recommended for write off."
link: http://democracy.breckland.gov.uk/do...ss%20Rates.pdf

[Hemmings1965]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

I think that if a liability order is obtained for business rates the debt can be chased . Again could be wrong as its hard to find info . I'm still puzzling over how I have a liability order and the debt is now halved but the liability order stands . Surely I'm liable for whole amount or nothing and they can't just change the amount willy nilly without referring it back to court . It's hard to get an answer and I'm scared to call without sone knowledge first of where I stand !

[josephbloggs]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

as long as the liability order was issued within 6 years of the period it is owed it will not be statute barred - and remains outstanding unless it is paid or included in bankruptcy or similar.

also these types of debts do not appear on credit files as they do not affect credit rating.

the monetary value of the liability order can be altered without the need to get another one.

i would suggest you put together an income and expenditure form and offer of payment and get it sent off before r&r come and charge further £235 (+ 7.5% of the debt over £1500)

[Hemmings1965]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

Thank you
So in summary if I can't disprove it I have to pay it and I should deal with bailiffs not council ?

[des8]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

From the OP's first post I thought that following the council's letter of September 2014, the council then obtained the LO.
If there was an LO in existence when council wrote in September 2014 surely they would have mentioned the fact.
Perhaps OP should write again seeking clarification:
1 - How many Liability orders
2 - Dates they were obtained
3 - Addresses they were for
4 - Period of time each covers
5 - How much each one was for
6 - How much is still outstanding
7 - Dates they were passed on for enforcement
8 - The dates & amounts of any payments
9 – All summons letters and correspondence

Tell them to call off the EAs, but if any should call don't let them in.

[Hemmings1965]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

To clarify : I called before writing in September and the liability orders are very old
The following was confirmed verbally but the council lady said they will not send me a copy

Liability order granted march 2003 twelve years old £2051

Liability order granted June 2003 twelve years old £3074

Liability order granted June 2004 eleven years old £ 1933

i don't understand how Lisbility orders could be granted during dates I was at the property and me not know
i also don't understand how they can now say I only owe £4260 instead of just under £8000k if the liability order hasn't bern back to court in twelve years

does that make sense or am I missing how this all works ?

[wales01man]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

You need to start paying to avoid more bailiff fees then once in place contest the orders

[des8]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

As above by Wales & Joe. but don't let them in.

[Big Al]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

If the LO was granted before 6 years from the date of the debt, it is not statute barred, as mentioned. But - if the council have made no effort to enforce it for over 6 years (and the fact they had your address for all this time shows they haven't), they need to go back to court to get authorisation to 'refresh' it. If they refuse to do this complain straight to the council CEO.

At this hearing, you can contest it as maladministration as you cannot prove any payments made due to the time elapsed, nor would you be expected to.

Do not pay anything now as you would be admitting liability. Deal directly with the council, never the bailiff as all they are interested in is their fees. The bailiff cannot force entry in any case.

[des8]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

But - if the council have made no effort to enforce it for over 6 years (and the fact they had your address for all this time shows they haven't), they need to go back to court to get authorisation to 'refresh' it.

Doesn't that only apply to CCJs, not liabiity orders?

[Big Al]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

Doesn't that only apply to CCJs, not liabiity orders?

There s no defining legislation on the issue. However, a LO is, in essence, no different to a CCJ. Both are sums a court has held you liable to pay. In the absence of legislation specific to a LO, one can reasonably follow that of a CCJ.

[Hemmings1965]

Re: new development - could do with some advise !

The debate above between Big Al and Des8 is essentially my query

I totally dispute the debt as when I was at the pub I paid everything due as far as I know and received no letters or bailiffs visits despite two of the three L/O being dated in 2003 when I was still at the venue. I feel I could have proved this if I was contacted at any point between 2003 and 2009 when I had my six years bank and accounting records as required by law as self employed. I closed the account in nov 2003 so don't have records now after 12 years

If the council now admit in writing that the dates were not correct about dates and the alleged debt is £4200 then £8000 then how does the LO still apply when the debt amount is dramatically different

The council say I can only deal with Ross and Roberts . If I deal with Ross and Roberts then surely I admit liability which I dispute

The advice above to set up a payment plan and then dispute the liability order confused me as if Birmingham Council are saying I can only deal with Ross and Roberts then who do I deal with to dispute liability.