Jacobs Bailiff PCN

[bridgel]

Hi guys,

I am really in need of some help.

I got a PCN in February and I appealed against it to the local authority as the car was parked in an unrestricted street. I never heard anything from them until last month. They had posted the NTOs to my address but we have an outdoor shared letterbox as we live in a flat and the NTOs had been posted through the letterbox for the flat above which was until last month vacant!! The new owner gave the letters to me when he moved in an I immediately e-mailed the council to ask what was going on. They replied stating that the issue had been passed on to Jacobs Bailiffs.

The bailiff attended our address when we were on holiday and left a letter stating we needed to pay £331.84 or they would return in 48 hours to remove goods. We did not get this until we returned at 9pm 3 days later. I intended to contact the bailiff the following day but at 6:45 the bailiff clamped the car rang the doorbell (I was still in bed so ignored) and left leaving a letter stating a payment of 457.84 was now due!

I immediately submitted the TE7 and TE9 form to the TEC and called the bailiff. He was very unhelpful and threatened to remove the car if I did not pay all of it immediately. I informed him that I was the legal owner and not the person named as the debtor but this did not seem to bother him. He said the vehicle had been seized and would be removed if I did not pay (no paperwork left other than the letter demanding money or they would remove after 5pm). I informed him that as he did not take closed possession and give me the correct paperwork and that the car was not the property of the debtor that I would remove the clamp if he did not. He declined and said I would be guilty of theft of his wheel clamp and hung up.

The clamp was poorly attached so I removed and this was the last I heard till today when the TEC replied stating my application was refused!

I need to know what I can do now - I know I can submit a N244 but to be honest I just want this done with and as I would have to pay £80 I might as well just pay the PCN!!

I contacted Jacobs requesting a fee breakdown and they responded as following

PCN - 112
First letter fee - 13.44
Visit fee 07/11 - 42
Levy Fee 12/11 - 54
ATR Fee 12/11 - 236.40
TOTAL 457.84

I can not understand how they got to these figures and they will not explain. By there own breakdown the first visit letter I received should have been for £167.44 and not the £331.84 they demanded and so these fees are clearly a figment of their imagination!!! I know they are above the statutory provision!!

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

They cannot apply Attend to Levy and Attend to Remove fees on the same day. There must be a gap between the levy and removal, usually, 5-7 calendar days.

There also appears to be an issue as to whom the debtor actually is. Could you clarify this, please? If the debtor named on the warrant is not you, then the enforcement action is ultra vires ab initio.

[bridgel]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

Thanks for your response.

The debt is in my partners name as she was the registered keeper - I bought the car from her friend when she emigrated and I did not realise as her friend sent the V5 to the DVLA and I did not notice until I taxed it. I have now sent the v5 off to change registered keeper and my partner has signed a declaration stating I own the car not her.

[dementedfeline]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

Bridgel, it appears that if the council object to your OOT (and this seems to happen by default - council object, TEC rubberstamps), then the N244 is the way to go. The best thing you could do is get your new neighbour to write a letter stating that they moved in on DATE and in their letterbox, to which you had no access, they found various letters addressed to you which they gave you on DATE. If any of the envelopes were clearly branded from the council, mention this too.

I was at an N244 hearing a couple of days ago with a friend - in 3 minutes the judge as good as told the council not to be so silly and allowed the OOT. Friend had not received NtO, CC etc as council had sent to old address. BUT there is no guarantee - you need to have a credible case.


fees:
Appendix - The Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs)
Regulations 1993 SI 2072 (as amended)
SCHEDULE 1 TABLE OF FEES CHARGES AND EXPENSES
(excluding Value Added Tax)
1 For preparing and sending a letter advising the debtor that a warrant is with the
bailiff and requesting the total sum due £11.20
Note: The fee under paragraph 1 can only be recovered if the letter is sent before a
first visit is made to the debtor’s premises.
2 For levying distress—
(i)Where the sum demanded and due does not exceed £100 £28.00
(ii)Where the sum demanded and exceeds £100 28% on the first
£200; due 5.5% on
any additional sum
over £200
3 For attending to levy distress but where the levy is not made, the reasonable costs
and charges for attending to levy. The costs and charges are not to exceed the
fees and charges which would have been due under paragraph 2 above if the
distress had been levied. The costs and charges are subject to detailed
assessment under rule 11.
Note: The aggregate costs and charges payable under paragraphs 2 and 3 are not
to exceed the costs and charges allowed for three attendances to levy distress.
4 For taking possession—
(i)Where a person is left in physical possession (close possession) £5.60 each
day.
(ii)Where walking possession is agreed 55p each day for the first 14 days;
5p each day thereafter.
Notes: The charge for walking possession is payable only if a walking possession
agreement has been made using Form 8.
A person left in physical possession (close possession) must provide his or her
own board in every case.
The possession fee is payable in respect of the day on which distress is levied, but
a fee for physical possession must not be charged where a walking possession
agreement is signed at the time when distress is levied.
5 For appraising (valuing) goods, the reasonable fees, charges, and expenses of the
broker. The fees, charges and expenses are subject to detailed assessment under
rule 11.
Note: An appraisal (valuation) shall take place only on the written request of the
debtor.
6 For removing goods, or attending to remove goods where no goods are removed,
reasonable costs and charges. The costs and charges are subject to detailed
assessment under rule 11.
12
12005084
7 For sale—
(i)Where the sale is held on the auctioneer’s premises, 15% of the sum realised to
cover the auctioneer’s commission and out-of-pocket expenses, plus the
reasonable cost of advertising, removal and storage.
(ii)Where the sale is held on the debtor’s premises, 7½% of the sum realised for
the auctioneer’s commission, plus out-of-pocket expenses actually and reasonably
incurred.
The fees, expenses, charges and costs to be subject to detailed assessment under
rule 11.
8 Where distress is withdrawn or where no sale takes place, reasonable fees,
charges and expenses, subject to detailed assessment under rule 11.
9 For the purpose of calculating any percentage charges, the fraction of £1 is to be
reckoned as £1. Any fraction of a penny is to be disregarded.
10 In addition to any amount authorised by this Table, the amount of value added tax
payable may be passed on to the debtor by adding an equivalent amount to the
sum due.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

Thanks for your response.

The debt is in my partners name as she was the registered keeper - I bought the car from her friend when she emigrated and I did not realise as her friend sent the V5 to the DVLA and I did not notice until I taxed it. I have now sent the v5 off to change registered keeper and my partner has signed a declaration stating I own the car not her.

Was the declaration a Statutory Declaration that has been notarised by a solicitor? A copy of the bill of sale or a note provided to you at the time of sale would help to kill the bailiff's pig.

[bridgel]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

I have not had it notarised and there is no bill of sale. I only asked her to fill it out after the bailiff visited. She does not live at my address if that helps but she does stay a few nights as she works close by but owns her own home 80 miles away.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

The declaration needs to be a Statutory Declaration to have any effect. This needs to be notarised by a legal professional. Otherwise, the car is at risk of seizure. However, can you confirm when you became the lawful owner of the vehicle, please?

[dementedfeline]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

playing devil's advocate here (remember, councils/bailiffs don't like to lose, so you need your facts in order) - if your other half doesn't live with you full time, why did her friend put HER name and YOUR address as the change of keeper info when YOU bought it? And how long ago did you tax it? And why didn't you change V5 then?

[bridgel]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

Hi guys, I bought the car off her friend in feb this year and just did not notice the V5 registered keeper. I taxed the car last month (oct) and I did notice and I sent the V5 off prob about a week later as I needed her to sign as because she does not drive anymore and is not on the insurance I was worried about insurance in my name car in hers etc. I also included a letter to DVLA stating this was not sale or transfer merely a mistake hoping they would not add another owner to vehicle history. It was just a daft mistake as it was all done in a rush as her friend is now volunteering oversees.

To be honest I don't believe the PCN is valid as it was parked in an unrestricted street but one wheel was on a double yellow. I just want these guys off my back and don't mind paying the fine just to have an end to it but I don't have 500 quid!!

Can I still pay the council and then just argue with the bailiff over reasonable fee?

Thanks again

[CleverClogs]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

The clamp was poorly attached so I removed [it]

What have you done with it?

[bridgel]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

I left the clamp where the car was and he collected it. It states on the letter to clarify fees that they have seized the car - they left no paperwork to state this! is there a process they must follow?

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

Hi guys, I bought the car off her friend in feb this year and just did not notice the V5 registered keeper. I taxed the car last month (oct) and I did notice and I sent the V5 off prob about a week later as I needed her to sign as because she does not drive anymore and is not on the insurance I was worried about insurance in my name car in hers etc. I also included a letter to DVLA stating this was not sale or transfer merely a mistake hoping they would not add another owner to vehicle history. It was just a daft mistake as it was all done in a rush as her friend is now volunteering oversees.

To be honest I don't believe the PCN is valid as it was parked in an unrestricted street but one wheel was on a double yellow. I just want these guys off my back and don't mind paying the fine just to have an end to it but I don't have 500 quid!!

Can I still pay the council and then just argue with the bailiff over reasonable fee?

Thanks again

I'm afraid that one wheel on a yellow line is all it needs for an offence to be complete.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

I'm afraid that one wheel on a yellow line is all it needs for an offence to be complete.

Unless, of course, the parking restriction is somehow invalid. :grin:

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

Unless, of course, the parking restriction is somehow invalid. :grin:

That is not uncommon, Cloggy. Especially if the council have neglected to keep the yellow lines properly maintained. The number of yellow lines not closed by a yellow bar is not uncommon either.

[Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge]

Re: Jacobs Bailiff PCN

it was parked in an unrestricted street but one wheel was on a double yellow..... Gotcha!

Can I still pay the council and then just argue with the bailiff over reasonable fee? Yes, yes, but you won't go very far, the fees were applied correctly

Thanks again

Sorry to give you bad news .... BTW to remove an immobilizing device, even if poorly fitted, is an offence under paragraph 49 of Schedule 5 of the Courts act 2003